Guess the next move

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:21 pm

as chosen by Leela Zero, latest network (223), 100k visits.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:30 pm

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:13 am

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:48 am

Tryss · Post by **Tryss** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:32 am

What I would have played :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And after looking with LZ, while it's not the answer, it's not that bad.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:37 pm

Knotwilg got it! Nicely done. I was very surprised by it so I was wondering if it seemed intuitive to others. It does look very severe once you see it but you have to be pretty confident you can handle all your groups afterwards. Knotwilg, was that the move you would play in a real game or did you go hunting for moves you thought an AI might play?

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:17 pm

Bravo, Knotwilg!

dfan, what was the game up to this point? Thanks.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:45 pm

Bill Spight wrote:dfan, what was the game up to this point? Thanks.

It's not a real game; I hope no one was misled! I was watching a ~1k game on KGS and was curious about what might happen if White pushed through and cut (at D15/E16), so I was exploring some of the ensuing variations with Leela Zero, and its choice here struck me. I'm not sure anymore what moves got us to this point or where we deviated from the actual game.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:29 pm

dfan wrote:Knotwilg got it! Nicely done. I was very surprised by it so I was wondering if it seemed intuitive to others. It does look very severe once you see it but you have to be pretty confident you can handle all your groups afterwards. Knotwilg, was that the move you would play in a real game or did you go hunting for moves you thought an AI might play?

I had the same feeling before reading this message. Knotwilg's move seemed very sharp to me - just a feeling (whether or not it works), but it was totally off my radar.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:16 pm

dfan wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:dfan, what was the game up to this point? Thanks.
It's not a real game; I hope no one was misled! I was watching a ~1k game on KGS and was curious about what might happen if White pushed through and cut (at D15/E16), so I was exploring some of the ensuing variations with Leela Zero, and its choice here struck me. I'm not sure anymore what moves got us to this point or where we deviated from the actual game.

No, I wasn't misled, just curious. Curiosity filled the hat, you know.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:23 pm

dfan wrote:Knotwilg got it! Nicely done. I was very surprised by it so I was wondering if it seemed intuitive to others.

It was high up my policy network (when primed to look for interesting move) but I was too lazy to read if it works after white f16 so didn't comment.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:33 pm

Kirby wrote:
dfan wrote:Knotwilg got it! Nicely done. I was very surprised by it so I was wondering if it seemed intuitive to others. It does look very severe once you see it but you have to be pretty confident you can handle all your groups afterwards. Knotwilg, was that the move you would play in a real game or did you go hunting for moves you thought an AI might play?
I had the same feeling before reading this message. Knotwilg's move seemed very sharp to me - just a feeling (whether or not it works), but it was totally off my radar.

Yes, a wonderful play!

Totally off my radar, as well.

This evening I have been playing around with this position with Deep Leela. It was totally off DL's radar, too. It liked it once I put it in, but not before. DL finally saw it, but it was a couple of moves deep in a different variation, starting with my move. All of our guesses were within DL's margin of error, I think.

White has really bad shape, which I guess is why DL gives Black around a 60% winrate. DL wants to give up the corner, or at least leave open the possibility, or leave a ko behind. That was my inclination, too, but I didn't see how to do it. My move aimed at making White more over concentrated.

After I played around with DL a bit, it settled on an interesting play. Here it is.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Keima $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black can contain White on the top left side with sente, and then switch to the top side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c More bad shape for White $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O 2 . 3 . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

DL reckons that

is the best response to Knotwilg's play. Then

is a quite good follow-up. DL also likes

at "a".

Tryss · Post by **Tryss** » Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:30 am

LZ (#221) plan :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 9 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 O 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X 6 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O 2 . 3 . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O O X . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:17 am

My recipe for success:
- 1/2 luck
- 1/6 what is a solution spectacular enough to write a post about?
- 1/6 bots like angle plays, don't they?
- 1/6 reading (but not the empty triangle response, I apologize to my fans)

This is what I read (apart from responses that allow atari & cut off the edge stone)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X 2 O 9 8 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . 4 3 . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O O X . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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