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Who will be the next EGF Professional?
Poll ended at Sun May 19, 2019 12:23 am
Cornel Burzo 19%  19%  [ 5 ]
Lukas Podpera 15%  15%  [ 4 ]
Stanislaw Frejlak 48%  48%  [ 13 ]
Chernykh Anton 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Viktor Lin 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Tanguy Le Calvé 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Dominik Boviz 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Rob van Zeijst 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Campagnie Rémi 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Jonas Welticke 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Vjacheslav Kajmin 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Sinan Djepov 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Ondrej Kruml 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Oscar Vazquez 7%  7%  [ 2 ]
One of the other two 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 27
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 Post subject: Re: Euro Pro Qualifiers
Post #21 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:09 pm 
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In the KGS chat someone said the first french pro was Benmalek.

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 Post subject: Re: Euro Pro Qualifiers
Post #22 Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:35 pm 
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https://senseis.xmp.net/?FaridBenMalek wrote:
French amateur 6 dan player, who was French Champion in 1993, 1998 and 2002. Trained as insei in Japan in 1990-1991. Winner of the 1998 Obayashi Cup. Technically he is also a professional player, having obtained a 1 shidoin certificate from the Nihon Kiin.


I don't understand what the last sentence means exactly.

His page on the European Go Database (http://www.europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/Pl ... y=10313391) shows that he hasn't been very active since 2004.

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 Post subject: Re: Euro Pro Qualifiers
Post #23 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 12:59 am 
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Apparently an upset.

It really should be a round robin for such an important tournament.

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 Post subject: Re: Euro Pro Qualifiers
Post #24 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 1:54 am 
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Knotwilg wrote:
Apparently an upset.
It really should be a round robin for such an important tournament.


Yes, the contrast with the British championship format is quite stark. The first stage is the Candidates tournament, which this year only had 15 players around 1d average and only 1 3d+ (former 4d): http://britgo.org/results/2019/cand. The next stage is the Challenger's league, an 8 player round robin event over 4 days with last year's champion and (since this year) runner up (me) plus top 6 from the Candidates. But a bunch of those top 6 declined their places so the Challengers will dip into the 1d/1k players. And then the top 2 of that play a best-of 3-or-5 title match. That's likely to be between myself and Andrew Kay, two 4 dans. Yet the EGF pro qualifier is a battle of 6 and 7 dans for a pro title and comes down to single-elimination (after first 2 rounds).

[Edit but too slow for Java] Having double elimination down to 8 players and then a round robin league would take rather a lot of games/time though, so I'm not sure that's viable. You could use more selection down to just the 8 players from grand prix points and other events throughout the year. But in the end although Stanislaw and Lukan were the favourites and highest rated, they aren't so far ahead of the others that it feels like an injustice that Tanguy won. If Ilya had entered I'm pretty sure he would have won. Any format will come down to a bit of a lottery of who played well on the day vs not, rather than who has had the best performance over the last year. So well done to Tanguy.

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 Post subject: Re: Euro Pro Qualifiers
Post #25 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 2:00 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Knotwilg wrote:
Apparently an upset.
It really should be a round robin for such an important tournament.


Yes, the contrast with the British championship format is quite stark. The first stage is the Candidates tournament, which this year only had 15 players around 1d average and only 1 3d+ (former 4d): http://britgo.org/results/2019/cand. The next stage is the Challenger's league, an 8 player round robin event over 4 days with last year's champion and (since this year) runner up (me) plus top 6 from the Candidates. But a bunch of those top 6 declined their places so the Challengers will dip into the 1d/1k players. And then the top 2 of that play a best-of 3-or-5 title match. That's likely to be between myself and Andrew Kay, two 4 dans. Yet the EGF pro qualifier is a battle of 6 and 7 dans and comes down to single-elimination (after first 2 rounds).


I think we would all like to watch a Round Robin tournament, but it would be a pretty expensive format for the players. In an 8 player round robin, you can have a 3 way tie at the top that would be unbreakable under face-to-face tiebreakers - or is my memory faulty? A straight knockout seems nice for a long weekend event.

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 Post subject: Re: Euro Pro Qualifiers
Post #26 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 2:08 am 
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In an 8-player Round Robin tournament, it is possible that 7 players tie:

Player 8 loses against everyone. In addition,

Player 1 wins against 2,3,4.
Player 2 wins against 3,4,5.
Player 3 wins against 4,5,6.
Player 4 wins against 5,6,7.
Player 5 wins against 6,7,1.
Player 6 wins against 7,1,2.
Player 7 wins against 1,2,3.

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 Post subject: Re: Euro Pro Qualifiers
Post #27 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 2:09 am 
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Quote:
Technically he is also a professional player, having obtained a 1 shidoin certificate from the Nihon Kiin.


Very technically. A shidoin diploma denotes a chief instructor in a dojo, so if he makes some money from teaching he can claim to be a pro. That's not what most go people count as a kishi or proper pro, and Farid has never been listed as such as far as I can see. Even Japanese players who properly make the cut but who then can't make it in the tournament world tend to be downgraded to "lesson pro" rather than kishi.

But shidoin is still a worthy achievement, and Farid is one of the nicest top amateurs I've met.

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 Post subject: Re: Euro Pro Qualifiers
Post #28 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 2:19 am 
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Knotwilg wrote:
Apparently an upset.

It really should be a round robin for such an important tournament.

a round robin has its share of issues. namely frequent not easy to break ties and early losers performing weaker in later rounds (this is of lesser importance). but yes, the current double-single elimination seems quite harsh. perhaps a full double elimination would be optimal. or some kind of two stage tournament. i am afraid a limiting factor here is time (AKA money)

PS: i've asked two strong players before the tournament and they both listed Stanislaw and Tanguy as favourites. so the result is not such a big upset in this regard

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 Post subject: Re: Euro Pro Qualifiers
Post #29 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 2:42 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
Technically he is also a professional player, having obtained a 1 shidoin certificate from the Nihon Kiin.


Very technically. A shidoin diploma denotes a chief instructor in a dojo, so if he makes some money from teaching he can claim to be a pro. That's not what most go people count as a kishi or proper pro, and Farid has never been listed as such as far as I can see. Even Japanese players who properly make the cut but who then can't make it in the tournament world tend to be downgraded to "lesson pro" rather than kishi.

But shidoin is still a worthy achievement, and Farid is one of the nicest top amateurs I've met.


Thank you for that enlightenment. Is this shidion certificate the same certification that Ion Florescu obtained?

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 Post subject: Re: Euro Pro Qualifiers
Post #30 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 3:40 am 
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The German Championship Finals use a system that could also be used for the EGF Pro Qualifiers:

1. Round-robin.

2. Direct comparison (in the case of the German Championship, without iteration; EGF style would be with iteration).

3. KO with short thinking times (German Championship: 20' SD; could be chosen longer) to split a multiple tie on place 1 (typically, a 3-players tie). The KO uses a pairing favouring earlier achievements, with free wins for the top KO-seeded players unless their number is a power of 2 (i.e., 4 or 8).

***

Before the tournament, I could not predict the winner because I considered several players to have roughly equal strength, among them Tanguy. I would not say that his qualification has been an upset.

Some say Lukas would have deserved it more. No, I say. A player not having a complete set of skill does not deserve it as much as another player having a more complete set. Lukas knows that his own endgame might be improved, he feared to win on endgame and therefore discarded the strategy of making the game a 0.5 / 1.5 points contest. Instead he transformed the late game into a killing / be killed game. If(!) his endgame skill was better and he had more confidence in his endgame, he should have won the game.

Some say Cornel would have deserved it more. No. If somebody makes it close to the top several times but not to the top, then he lacks the ability of winning the decisive tournament so far. His lost game this year indicates some knowledge gaps and his opponent deserves to have won that game for exhibiting them.

Tanguy is not the perfect player but his knowledge or skill gaps have had the least impact. He approaches the ideal of a complete player among the qualifiers the closest. Deserved qualification!

Fewer new pro players than 1 every 2 years? That would be hilarious. The only reason for greater restriction would be even greater protection of commercial interest of already existing pro players in an environment of limited finanfical sources.

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 Post subject: Re: Euro Pro Qualifiers
Post #31 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 4:19 am 
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I don't see any problem making 1 new pro every 2 years. Firstly, Europe can only support financially so many professional players - the DeepMind sponsorship and CEGO sponsorship will end soon. Secondly, the player pool size is not so big. Doesn't it introduce a real problem of respectability if you create too many professionals without them having the rating to back that up?

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 Post subject: Re: Euro Pro Qualifiers
Post #32 Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 4:46 am 
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From this thread forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=580 and that one forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16236 there are about 240 professionals in Korea compared to 2 million who play casually, so the ratio is about 1:10000.

In Europe, from http://www.europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/Stats_Country.php there are about 43000 people who have participated in at least one tournament. However, not every casual player participates in tournaments, so maybe there are 200000 casual players. Assuming the go population remains constant, 1 new pro in Europe every 2 years will ultimately bring the ratio to about 1:10000, which is reasonable, at least as long as several 7-dans compete.


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 Post subject: Re: Euro Pro Qualifiers
Post #33 Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 9:13 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Knotwilg wrote:
Apparently an upset.
It really should be a round robin for such an important tournament.


Yes, the contrast with the British championship format is quite stark. The first stage is the Candidates tournament, which this year only had 15 players around 1d average and only 1 3d+ (former 4d): http://britgo.org/results/2019/cand. The next stage is the Challenger's league, an 8 player round robin event over 4 days with last year's champion and (since this year) runner up (me) plus top 6 from the Candidates. But a bunch of those top 6 declined their places so the Challengers will dip into the 1d/1k players. And then the top 2 of that play a best-of 3-or-5 title match. That's likely to be between myself and Andrew Kay, two 4 dans. Yet the EGF pro qualifier is a battle of 6 and 7 dans for a pro title and comes down to single-elimination (after first 2 rounds).

[Edit but too slow for Java] Having double elimination down to 8 players and then a round robin league would take rather a lot of games/time though, so I'm not sure that's viable. You could use more selection down to just the 8 players from grand prix points and other events throughout the year. But in the end although Stanislaw and Lukan were the favourites and highest rated, they aren't so far ahead of the others that it feels like an injustice that Tanguy won. If Ilya had entered I'm pretty sure he would have won. Any format will come down to a bit of a lottery of who played well on the day vs not, rather than who has had the best performance over the last year. So well done to Tanguy.


If I were to set up the tournament, it would take one week, possibly allowing the first Saturday and the last Sunday for travel. If one wants to become a professional, investing one week of his time should not be too much. Details of the system will depend on the number of players, but no one would be eliminated by a single loss.

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 Post subject: Re: Euro Pro Qualifiers
Post #34 Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:23 am 
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Possible competition format respecting the condition that "no one is eliminated after a single loss". Select 8 players P1,..., P8.

1st round: P1 against P5, P2 against P6, etc.

2nd round: winners of round 1 play together, losers of round 1 play together. The two players with 2 wins (call them Q1 and Q2) are selected for round 4.

3rd round: the 4 players with 1 win and 1 loss play together to determine 2 additional players Q3 and Q4.

Rounds 4,5,6: apply the same procedure to Q1,...,Q4 in order to select 2 finalists.

Rounds 7,8,9: final, best-of-three.

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 Post subject: Re: Euro Pro Qualifiers
Post #35 Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 2:11 am 
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jlt wrote:
Possible competition format respecting the condition that "no one is eliminated after a single loss". Select 8 players P1,..., P8.

1st round: P1 against P5, P2 against P6, etc.

2nd round: winners of round 1 play together, losers of round 1 play together. The two players with 2 wins (call them Q1 and Q2) are selected for round 4.

3rd round: the 4 players with 1 win and 1 loss play together to determine 2 additional players Q3 and Q4.

Rounds 4,5,6: apply the same procedure to Q1,...,Q4 in order to select 2 finalists.

Rounds 7,8,9: final, best-of-three.

With 8 players I would have a round robin played and then some play off games. This would take about the same time as your system.

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 Post subject: Re: Euro Pro Qualifiers
Post #36 Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 2:33 am 
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But 7 players can tie after the round-robin, see my previous post viewtopic.php?p=244962#p244962

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 Post subject: Re: Euro Pro Qualifiers
Post #37 Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 1:27 pm 
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jlt wrote:
But 7 players can tie after the round-robin, see my previous post viewtopic.php?p=244962#p244962

Then we need three play off rounds. This makes a total of 10 rounds, which just one more than nine rounds. That is doable in a week or less.

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