Is there only one solution for this 5x5?

[Jika]

Hi,

I've been following several people's suggestion to play "basic" go here:
https://www.crazy-sensei.com/location=rules

(End up with more stones on the board than the computer.)

There is a 5x5 game (scroll down to "Let's play!") and I worked my way from a handicap of 5 to 0 (ridiculous, but lots of fun and I'm a bit proud).

Question:
I am able to beat the bot 23:0, but only if I get tengen.

Otherwise the bot takes tengen and wins (not by capturing, but simply by having more stones on the board).

I've tried, but I can't find a way to win without tengen.

Could someone please have a look and tell me (honestly) if there is a solution (win more stones than bot or even beat to 0) with the bot having tengen?

(If there is one, don't tell me yet. I just want to know if it is worth trying harder or if my impression that whoever has tengen wins is correct.)

Thanks!!
And another thanks to lightvector for the link and to Knotwilg for advising the same idea!

[jlt]

I tried once and beat the computer taking black with 0 handicap, and starting with the 3-2 point, but the AI is not too strong so I don't know if a stronger AI would have won.

[zermelo]

I tried playing that bot with black, 0 handicap. If I play tengen or 3-2 I always win and can capture all white stones. If I play 2-2 I almost always win too, but I can see it is not playing the best moves, so I am not sure if I should win.

I am not sure what is most useful to you, to continue studying 5 x 5 or maybe move to 9 x 9. Probably does not matter in the long term, if you keep playing.

[Bill Spight]

Well, here is an sgf file with a number of variations.

Not to spoil your fun, but if you start on a 3-2 pt. and White plays tengen, the bot probably makes a mistake against Black's next play, assuming it is best.

(;AP[GOWrite:3.0.15]GM[1]SZ[5]CA[UTF-8]ST[2]FF[4]FG[259:]PM[2]PB[ ]GN[ ]PW[ ]
;B[dc];W[cc];B[cb]
(
;C[*** Mistake.]W[bb]
;B[cd];W[bc]
;C[*** White dies. See continuation.]B[da]
;W[bd];B[de];W[ba];B[be];W[eb];B[db];W[ed];B[ec];W[ad]
;C[*** Holding White to one eye.]B[ab]
;W[ae];B[ce];W[dd];B[ee];W[dd]
;C[*** Black has two eyes, White has one. Result\: +25]B[ed]
)
(
;C[*** Sacrifice to get to push Black around.]W[db]
(
;B[eb]
;C[*** Sacrifice to prevent two eyes with the capture.]W[da]
(
;C[*** IT turns out that this loses. See variation.]B[ca]
;W[dd];B[ea];W[bc];B[ed];W[de];B[bb]
;C[*** Prevents a second eye.]W[ab]
;C[*** Sacrifice to reduce White's eye space.]B[ac]
;C[*** If Black captures she has two eyes.]W[ad]
;C[*** Prevents a second eye for White.]B[be]
;C[*** Protects the cutting point.]W[cd]
(
;B[bd];W[db];B[da];W[ee]
;C[*** Black cannot win a ko.]B[ec]
(
;C[*** Prevents a ko here. See variation.]W[aa]
;B[ae];W[ce];B[be];W[ac];B[bd];W[ae];B[bd]
;C[*** WHite wins by 3.]W[be]
)
(
;C[*** Throw-in to make ko.]W[ba]
;B[aa];W[ac];B[ae];W[ba]
;C[*** Forced pass.]B[tt]
;C[Result\: -25]W[db]
)

)
(
;C[*** black prevents ko here.]B[ba]
;W[db];B[da];W[ee];B[ec];W[ac];B[bd];W[aa];B[ae]
;C[*** But Black loses, anyway.]W[db]
)

)
(
;B[cd];W[bc]
(
;C[*** This loses, too. See variations.]B[dd]
;C[*** White makes two eyes.]W[bb]
;B[bd];W[ad];B[be];W[ec];B[ed]
;C[*** Black dies. Result\: -25]W[de]
)
(
;B[ed]
;C[*** Prevents two eyes in this corner.]W[de]
;B[ce]
;C[*** White lives. ]W[bb]
;B[bd]
;C[*** Black dies.]W[ad]
)

(
;B[de]
;C[*** Prevents two eyes in this corner.]W[ed]
(
;B[ec]
;C[*** White lives.]W[bb]
;B[bd];W[ad]
;C[*** Black does, too.]B[be]
;W[ac];B[dd];W[ca];B[ea]
;C[*** Result\: White wins by 1.]W[ae]
)
(
;B[ca];W[dd];B[ea];W[bd];B[be]
(
;W[db];B[da];W[ad];B[ec];W[ce];B[bb];W[cd];B[ab]
;C[*** White wins by 1 pt.]W[ac]
)
(
;W[ce];B[bb];W[ab];B[cd];W[db];B[da];W[ce];B[aa];W[ae];B[ac]
;C[*** Black dies.]W[ec]
)

)

)

)

)
(
;B[dd];W[bb];B[cd];W[bc];B[eb];W[da];B[bd];W[ad];B[be];W[ec];B[ed];W[de]
)

)

(
;W[bc]
(
;C[*** Crawling is a mistake.]B[bb]
;W[dd];B[ec]
(
;W[da]
(
;B[db];W[ab]
(
;C[*** Mistake. See variation.]B[ba]
;C[*** Black dies.]W[ea]
)
(
;B[ea];W[eb];B[ca];W[ed]
;C[*** Black lives.]B[ea]
;W[ac];B[ba]
;C[*** White wins by 5.]W[aa]
)

)
(
;B[ed];W[db];B[cd];W[bd];B[de];W[ab];B[eb];W[ba];B[be];W[ad];B[ea];W[ca];B[ce]
;C[*** White wins by 3 pts.]W[ae]
)

)
(
;W[ed];B[da];W[eb];B[db];W[ab];B[ba];W[ac]
;C[*** White wins by 3.]B[aa]
)

)
(
;B[dd];W[bb];B[da];W[cd]
(
;B[ce];W[be];B[de];W[ba]
;C[*** Black wins by 1 pt.]B[ca]
)
(
;B[ba];W[eb];B[db]
;C[*** Black has one eye.]W[de]
;B[ab]
(
;W[ed]
(
;B[ad];W[ec];B[ac];W[be];B[bd];W[ce];B[aa];W[ee]
;C[*** Black wins by 1.]B[ca]
)
(
;B[ec];W[ac];B[ce];W[be];B[ad];W[ce];B[ca];W[ee];B[bd];W[aa];B[tt]
;C[White wins by 25.]W[ea]
)

)
(
;W[ac]
(
;B[ed];W[ce];B[be];W[ea];B[bd];W[aa];B[ca];W[ab];B[ec];W[eb];B[ea];W[ad];B[tt];W[ae];B[bd]
;C[*** White wins by 2]W[be]
)
(
;B[ce];W[be];B[ad];W[ed];B[ec];W[ce];B[ca];W[ee];B[bd];W[aa];B[tt];W[ea]
)

)

)

)

)

)

Edit: Can't we get this thing to show a 5x5 board?

[Pio2001]

I just beat it 23-0 while it got the tengen.

The trick : count the liberties of all your groups. I had to play a move that seemed dangerous, but I knew it was safe because my strings had 3 and 4 liberties while the string of the bot had only 2. Therefore I was sure that I could capture it before it captures me.

[Jika]

Don't know if I was really hoping that it is possible

I'll take this as my holiday project (if I have broadband).

And, well, it sounds like I should learn some, some reading (counting liberties? What?? ).

[Jika]

Uhm, stupid question (another):

I'm not familiar with the notation in numbers.

So, 3-2 means what?
Row - column?
And, if so, do we start counting with the first line?

So "D 15" would be "4-5"?
(I looked at Bill's SGF, first move only - is this a "4-3" or a "3-2"?)

And does this notation go until "19-19" (if not doing tsumego or joseki that might be rotated for practice)?

[jlt]

The 3-2 points are marked in this diagram:

$$B
$$ +-----------+
$$ | . . . . . |
$$ | . . C . . |
$$ | . C . C . |
$$ | . . C . . |
$$ | . . . . . |
$$ +-----------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +-----------+
$$ | . . . . . |
$$ | . . C . . |
$$ | . C . C . |
$$ | . . C . . |
$$ | . . . . . |
$$ +-----------+[/go]

In the diagram below, the white group has 3 liberties (marked by triangles), and the black group has 6 liberties.

$$B
$$ +-----------+
$$ | . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . |
$$ | . T O X . |
$$ | . T O T . |
$$ +-----------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +-----------+
$$ | . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . |
$$ | . T O X . |
$$ | . T O T . |
$$ +-----------+[/go]

[Bill Spight]

Uhm, stupid question (another):

Not stupid at all.

I'm not familiar with the notation in numbers.

So, 3-2 means what?
Row - column?

Either, unless specified.

And, if so, do we start counting with the first line?

Yes.

So "D 15" would be "4-5"?

Or 5-4, unless the distinction mattered.

(I looked at Bill's SGF, first move only - is this a "4-3" or a "3-2"?)

We usually use smaller numbers. So on a 5x5 board we usually say 2 instead of 4, 1 instead of 5. Unless the distinction matters.

And does this notation go until "19-19"

Yes, on a 19x19 board, if it matters.