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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #61 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:48 am 
Tengen
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unkx80 wrote:
Even if the whole position is one lower such that the 4-4 stone is at 3-4, I am still going to say the same thing. This is how much value I attach to the corner stone.


If you disagree with me you are almost definitely right :)

However, I still don't like giving White thickness facing that center if I can avoid it. If the stone was 3-4, I wouldn't contact underneath in the first place I guess...

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #62 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:54 am 
Gosei
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Speaking of that, even though white's stone is high (which I'm not used to, of course) I considered playing a knight's- or one-space- jump the other way, to be 'normal'. Would that have been a bad response? I was hoping to get a bit more access to the center. I decided not to, because then white would be able to attach under the 4-4 and get even more of the side. Did I make the right decision?

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #63 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:57 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . , X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is normal, but with your 4-4 and the fact White doesn't have to make an extra reinforcing move on the left, I definitely prefer what you did...

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #64 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:00 am 
Gosei
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topazg wrote:
This is normal, but with a 4-4 I think I actually prefer what you did...


Thanks, that's kind of what I had expected, which is why I avoided it. My corner in the game is definitely larger, at least. Not certain if I would have remembered/been able to figure out 5. It's a type of move that always makes sense to me when I see it, but I rarely think of it myself.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #65 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:25 am 
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I think this reduction is too deep, so I'll take a while to read and see if I can murder it. Next move coming this evening

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #66 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:31 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . , X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Changed my mind, I don't need to kill it, I can just take my points for now. I can always attack later. It's hard right now, because of the weakness between my H7 and tengen stones.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #67 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:05 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . . B X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


While I really want a big move at the top, or to support my reduction stone, I like the timing for this move here. Threatens to take quite a lot of points, threatens the stability of those stones. Of course, those stones are enough in the center that they won't be cut off and killed unless Shaddy decides (more than once) to let me, removing stability gives me threats and forcing moves for later.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #68 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:52 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not much choice, is there? Ladder's good for me, so this is fine.. gotta watch that though.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #69 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:59 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O B O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This followup seems small, but the purpose (unstabilizing the group a bit) has been achieved. This gives me lots of options for later, like N6, Q8, or a more normal ladder breaker for a forcing move towards the middle. If Shaddy ends up fixing up his group again, I will get these handful of points in sente, which would be fine.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #70 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:06 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . W . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ok, let's burn some kikashi and stabilize.

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . 1 W . 6 8 . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , 2 5 4 . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X 3 7 X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #71 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:28 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . 1 W . 6 8 . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , 2 5 4 . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X 3 7 X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My opponent burned his forcing moves to build up one side of this region in gote. This separates off his eastern star point. Additionally, it is fairly sente but a little hard to handle. Notably, the white tetris block below is down to three liberties. What I'm expecting is for my opponent to defend that region, while I weaken his star point further. As his stone is fourth-line, I don't expect to eat it or anything, but I reduce his potential in this area, get higher, and may even be able to extend south from my northeast star in semi-sente later, depending on how weak his star stone gets. Wishful thinking, I know.

Long story short: I think I get to make moves like this because my groups are stable. That is one huge benefit of taking the corners and sides first, is I was able to make my groups more stable. Anything I put in the middle would be risky, but coming up from the sides is rock-solid.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #72 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:02 pm 
Tengen
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Erm, isn't that Black group at the bottom down to one eye?

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #73 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:21 pm 
Gosei
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topazg wrote:
Erm, isn't that Black group at the bottom down to one eye?


I'm not sure? I had assumed I had enough room to live, but I may have been mistaken...

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #74 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:12 pm 
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There is much reading to be done. I'm reasonably sure something is about to die.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #75 Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 11:57 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . X O . O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , O X O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X X X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


[Violence]Show me your eyes...[/Violence]

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #76 Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:09 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . X O . O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , O X O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X X X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O B . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Step one.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #77 Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:40 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . X O . O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , O X O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X X X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X W . O X . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Die.

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #78 Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:54 am 
Tengen
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not for the players:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . X O . O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O X , O X O . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X X X X X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X W 4 O X . 2 9 1 O a 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . 8 7 . 5 . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:b5: is sente because of "a" so the answer is ko.... group with that much of running space should have enough ko threat to live easily. there is the EYE.
if white try to capture such group he will lose many many points.....

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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #79 Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:10 am 
Lives in sente
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I wonder if all participants are aware which group is now the target of "Die."

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This post by Harleqin was liked by: topazg
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 Post subject: Re: 66. Shaddy(1d) vs. Chew Terr(5k)
Post #80 Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:28 am 
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Harleqin wrote:
I wonder if all participants are aware which group is now the target of "Die."


I was thinking the same thing myself

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