Western professionals as a resource

[jlt]

Just to make it clear again: the list of pros certified by EGF is

Ali Jabarin 2p
Artem Kachanovskyi 2p
Andrii Kravets 1p
Tanguy Le Calvé 1p
Pavol Lisy 2p
Ilya Shikshin 3p
Mateusz Surma 2p

I think that people not appearing on this list like high-dan amateurs or professionals from other organizations are very legitimate teachers, but I also fear that if EGF pros are too far from the general public, then people will start to question the usefulness of having a professional organization in Europe.

[Ferran]

During earlier congresses and this year, Catalin (European pro but not EGF pro) and Törmänen (EGF pro) have given / will give lectures. One of the EGF pros. Legal by EGF standards but this number is not impressive indeed. At least it is more than "not at all".

I thought Antti Törmänen was a Nihon Kiin pro... Or did I misunderstand your "EGF pro" and you mean he's a member of the EGF too?

Sorry if I missed something.

Take care.

[RobertJasiek]

You are right, Antti is not an EGF pro according to this page: https://www.eurogofed.org/pros/ My memory must have played me a trick.

So there are zero EGF pro teachers at congresses, it seems. A bit few.

[Matti]

Nihon Kiin professionals are not allowed to play in amateur tournaments, but the EGF pros don't have that kind of restriction, so they can play in the European Championship.

[RobertJasiek]

This would only apply to players active in the Nihon Kiin (tournaments), it seems. E.g., Catalin Taranu 5p played in the EGC 2010 main tournament: https://www.eurogofed.org/results/congress/egc10m.txt

[ez4u]

Nihon Kiin professionals are not allowed to play in amateur tournaments, but the EGF pros don't have that kind of restriction, so they can play in the European Championship.

I think it is better to say that the major Japanese amateur tournaments do not allow professionals to enter. I am not aware of any restriction from the Nihon Ki'in side. I have played in small informal tournaments that included young NK pros playing for cash prizes (needless to say, I was in a different section ).

[Ferran]

This would only apply to players active in the Nihon Kiin (tournaments), it seems.

Well, this touches my add-on query early on: what's the status of Western tournaments with the Eastern associations? Are they in any way relevant? Does the "no amateur tournaments" apply to foreign ones or is it a "courtesy" Japanese rule to encourage amateurs? If an Eastern qualified pro wins a game against a pro in EU/US soil, does that game count towards promotion?

Take care.

[Oberlappen]

I already saw, that EGF Pros did teaching or made analysis for games. That wasn´t much, but I saw it from Ali Jabarin. And I am not all around at the time, many lecturs and tournaments at the same time. Also some of our Pros are often in Asia, playing the Chinese C League or a tournament there. There are many normal tournaments in Europe too, more than in the AGA (when I looked on the event page of the AGA, it looked like, Germany alone got more tournaments). Some of them could do jobs as teachers and commentators in the rest of the year too. And enough of them would do a normal job in parttime, cause it´s hard to live from Go alone.
It´s no wonder, that they don´t play all the time, at the EGC. But maybe the EGC in Pisa was an exception, for the most, but with Ilya Shikshin I saw it more than one time, that he just played the first week. I think there is no problem, it´s not that there two or three events in Europe and a few visits in Asia, where they can participate. There are a lot of strong tournaments in Europe, they can play, besides the EGC, for example the Kido Cup in Hamburg, Amsterdam International Go Tournament, Yike Cup in Berlin, a strong tournament in Vienna, European Grand Prix and some more.
If they need a chance to rest it´s ok. Especially, when they are doing a normal job, even if that one is in part time.

I already said it, in another thread. I think the main problem for the AGA Pros is, that there is a lack of competition. We got much more events here in Europe. It´s also a thing, that is not easy done in North America, I would´nt fault anyone tehre for it. Europe is more tense, many countries got a good public transporttation system, too. In the US it´s harder and I think it´s not easy in Canada too.
In Europe there are more players too, that is also a factor. You can easier build up a tournament here, or at least in many of the european countries. So it´s easier having a tournament nearby, not only normal ones, strong tournaments too.
And it seems we have way more often weekend tournaments, in the AGA I saw normally one day tournaments. In Germany and the Netherlands I can tell, that it is normal to offer a private sleeping place for free, where you can ask for staying at someones home, bringing your sleeping bag and sleeping pad with you. But thats not all of the EGF, when I was at the tournament in London, I heard they don´t offer private sleeping places. So i don't know in how many countries that way is used, but you can be sure, there are soem countries doing that.
That would also help, growing knew strong players, which are a challenge to your pros, we still have some strong amateurs, who are a real challenge for our Pros. This helps our Pros evolving, cause of enough competition.

When it comes to teaching, there are many offers in Europe, mainly online, so there are possibilities, to do some jobs there. One of them should be known at the AGA too, the Yunguseng Dojang. Hwang Inseong does it not only for Europe, he got a North American branch too. There could be maybe a chance for AGA pros, to do a teacher job, if they want to, they could ask him. Normally there is a waiting list, for the Yunguseng Dojang, cause there are too many, which want to participate. Cause of that, there might be the potential, for more teaching jobs.

[Liso]

Not sure, but I think Pavol Lisy is doing a Maths degree.

I could confirm this. For example, he did one examen day after game with Eric Lui, then he came later than other europeans to play chinese C-league because (I don't remember if this or another) examen. And next one he needed to do 2 days after returning from China.

You are right, Antti is not an EGF pro according to this page: https://www.eurogofed.org/pros/ My memory must have played me a trick.

So there are zero EGF pro teachers at congresses, it seems. A bit few.

Here I need to say that they are pros and european championship is one of few top events for them. So my opinion is that it is very fine that they could fully concentrate to the games (in this event).

However, are we really using our pros anywhere even in range of their full potential? They get invited to this or that event, but... Frankly, most of what I've seen is their personal initiative, which tends to be on par with that of strong amateur dans.

Here I need say that EGF is trying to support pros. Look for example:

For organizers of Bonus Point Tournaments it should be very attractive to engage European Professionals with an essential financial support by the EGF.
We want to give our Pros more “defined” chances for teaching / commenting while participants of Bonus Point Tournaments get it all for free, as part of the “Go-event”.

Source: https://docs.google.com/document/d/17fr ... cnOug/edit

Or at other document describing requirements for tournaments in Grand Prix:

B required 3) Engagement of a European Professional Player for the event

Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =157900579

Yes, we are far from possibilities which top asian pros have, but it is a process and I think/hope that situation is improving.

[Ferran]

Here I need say that EGF is trying to support pros.

If I understand those rules correctly, the EGF is trying to support it's own professional system, not European pros. There's a H of a difference.

Take care.

[Liso]

Here I need say that EGF is trying to support pros.

If I understand those rules correctly, the EGF is trying to support it's own professional system, not European pros. There's a H of a difference.

Take care.

We already know fact that there are teachers only from different pro organization in European congress. How do you interpret that?

I just added some more facts here. I just put some stone into mosaic. But I don't want to hide whole picture!

I think that transatlantic match show cooperation and synergy to support both sides pros. I don't see any sponsor described here so I expect (maybe I am wrong) that federation and association put their money (or at least some effort) here... Both accept fair "risc" that money will go to other side.

I think that it is very normal that EGF prefer to support (with their scarce resources) their own pros, isn't it?

And BTW european pro championship is (or at least was) open to other pros too. See: https://www.eurogofed.org/epc/2018.html (but maybe Alexander's pro organisation added some money for prices there? )

[Javaness2]

I think it is fair to say that the EGF does try to support European professionals, but most actively the EGF certified ones.
I wonder what will happen when the money from DeepMind & CEGO runs out. Who is the the wizard of revenue generation that will keep the system afloat?

[Oberlappen]

I hope, there are more possibilities to make mone for pros. The chance for a job and even if it´s just a side job, is the best support for them.

Twitch should give here some chances. It´s a platform, with a lot of viewers. I heared, the AGA already have an agreement, getting money for an big amount of viewers. The EGF is still working on it. Commercials are a little, but fine resource then. And a lot of viewers there, is an argument, for getting sponsors. An stream, weekly supported, or every two weeks, could give some money, but in that case, we need more, than one host, this could be a chance for gaining money as a pro.

[Ferran]

Twitch should give here some chances. It´s a platform, with a lot of viewers. I heared, the AGA already have an agreement, getting money for an big amount of viewers. The EGF is still working on it.

Yes... but. Ask someone who actually has a channel (ie, not me), but monetization of these things is hard. And constantly changing. Also, it requires a regular stream of content. The AGA is closer to that, the EGF almost missing. And even so, the AGA video, already recorded, of the 4th transatlantic match took 2 months to upload. That method is poorly monetized: viewers need a certain regularity, AFAIK.

Take care.

[Matti]

Last year I talked with Antti Törmänen. I was thinking if I could organise a tournament in Finland where Antti could play. He said that Nihon Kiin does not want him to play in amateur tournaments. So there seems to be variation in the policies of different professional organsations.