Shin Jinseo

[Uberdude]

Mr Kin's site sometimes has dates on future tournament rounds, so browsing through those you can find future games of player of interest. trout sometimes posts schedules here. Other than that I just found out about games when they happen. I'm sure there's more info on CJK websites...

[ewan1971]

From probability point of view, for someone who's constantly achieving record Elo ratings, Shin should have won a few more international majors than he actually has, which is precisely zero.

He needs to start winning a few soon. Elo numbers are nice, really nice, but...

P.S. Asian TV Cup and Globis Cup are not international majors.

Thats false (probability part), and i already proved it, but you deny it not backing up it with ANY facts.

First, he is not constantly achieving record elo rating, but he overthrown Ke Jie/Park Junghwan recently.
Second, his 3700 rating against opposition about 3550 gives him sth like 55%-60%, way not enough to constantly win tournaments. Even 80% edge, as i proved does not even give 50% to win 16 player tournament, and when you have more steps, probability shut downs.

Maybe asian tv cup is not major, but it didnt change probabilities. Its just time, in 5 years, if he keep 1st rank spot, i am pretty sure he will have some majors. Btw who decide which international tournament is major or not?

Would you take it easy? I wasn't talking about the Asian TV cup or Shin's probability of winning a tournament. I was merely being facetious to make a point, which is why there was an emoji in my original post.

[ewan1971]

In all seriousness, the constant stream of updates on every tiny increase in Shin's Elo rating is a bit much.

I mean it's nice his Elo is scaling new incremental heights after each won game, but do we need an update on it every time it happens? Do we need our computers to announce the time when each minute passes? Does a pedometer app need to announce the count each time we take an additional step?

Does a kid who's yet to win a single major title deserve this kind of persistent attention on a parameter as fatuous as his Elo rating?

Elo ratings are not scores, and professional aren't competing to win the highest Elo rating. They compete to win tournaments, to win titles, to take home that shiny trophy, that nice chunk of cash, and all that prestige that comes with being a champion. The bigger the tournament, the greater the prize and prestige.

Until Shin wins a major title (or two), please kindly keep the Elo updates to a minimum. Come to think of it, instead of Elo updates, it's far better to talk about Shin's win streaks when they occur or when Shin wins against Ke Jie, which rarely happens.

Or feel free to ignore my rant and do whatever you wish. I freely admit that I'm a curmudgeon. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Joaz Banbeck]

... BTW, who decide which international tournaments are major or not?

TTBOMK, there is no formal group that decides. There seems to be a general consensus at https://senseis.xmp.net/?BigTitles#toc3

For those who don't want to follow the link:

Bailing Cup
Chunlan Cup
Ing Cup
LG Cup
Mlily Cup
Samsung Cup

( If one were inclined to debate this, a new thread would be best )

[Uberdude]

Joaz, SL is out-of-date. I'd add the 2 even newer Chinese ones Tianfu and Xinao cups which both have big prelims, though the longevity of the sponsors remains to be seen. There's also the Nihon Ki-in's "World Go Championship" whose first 2 editions were small invitation-only events, but the 3rd had decent large prelims for 3 places of an 8-player knockout (Park Junghwan won all 3 editions, he beat Shin in the semis).

[Mapleleaf]

I just found one August-early September Go tournament schedule: https://translate.google.ca/translate?h ... rev=search

The 6th Kuksu Mountains Cup will be in Korea Aug 3-5, I remembered it is a fast game / team tournament? The prize money should be similar to the Asian TV Cup;

Chinese Qisheng Title Finals will be Aug 2-7;

There will be an invitational tournament called the 9th World Go Submit Aug 14-15. I believe it should be something like Ke Jie vs Park or Shin;

2019 World Pair Go will be in Japan Aug 18-21;

Also, Samsung Cup World Masters will be in Korea from Aug 29-Sep 7. Seems it is a single elimination to the finals this year and we can see the finals from Sep 4-6... Shin may have a chance to fulfill his dreams in his recent good forms. I will go to the KPMC in another city Aug 31 to Sep 5, not sure if we will get chance to watch the world masters.

[silviu22]

In all seriousness, the constant stream of updates on every tiny increase in Shin's Elo rating is a bit much.

I assume you are talking about my updates, so I am going to reply. First of all, feel free to ignore posts you don't care about. There are some people whose posts I don't like and I simply ignore them.

Second of all, I am posting the updates because it seems to be the only way to know what is the high point achieved by a certain player. I am curious to know even if you are not. I would like to know the exact high point for Ke Jie, but since nobody bothered to keep track of it, nobody knows what that high point was. And all of this is because the rating system tends to go back and change the ratings from 6 months ago.

So without my constant updates, we wouldn't know a year from now what his high point was. And since you mentioned it, here is another: on Aug 2, 2019 there is a new high point of 3703.

[ewan1971]

I am posting the updates because it seems to be the only way to know what is the high point achieved by a certain player. I am curious to know even if you are not.

If that were the case, then wouldn't it have been better to open a thread dedicated to the highest Elo rating, regardless of who has achieved it? Or are you going to open up a new thread for each player who has achieved a new high in Elo?

...it seems to be the only way to know what is the high point achieved by a certain player...

No, it's not the only way; it only seems that way to you. It's widely known that Goratings tracks Elo for individual players. Here are some examples:

Shin Jinseo: https://www.goratings.org/en/players/1313.html

Park Junghwan: https://www.goratings.org/en/players/1090.html

Ke Jie: https://www.goratings.org/en/players/1195.html

I would like to know the exact high point for Ke Jie, but since nobody bothered to keep track of it, nobody knows what that high point was. And all of this is because the rating system tends to go back and change the ratings from 6 months ago.

I know that you would like to know, but why presume that everybody else would like to know as well? Furthermore, why presume that nobody knows what that high point was? Have you checked out this link?

https://www.goratings.org/en/history/

That link contains all the latest and the greatest in Elo ratings. Do you really think there is truly a need to manually update us each time Shin or someone else manages to go up a few points over the previous record?

So without my constant updates, we wouldn't know a year from now what his high point was. And since you mentioned it, here is another: on Aug 2, 2019 there is a new high point of 3703.

You think much too highly of your constant updates. Again, see the link below. It's not a secret.

https://www.goratings.org/en/history/

[Uberdude]

ewan, in your metamorphosis from an onion, you seem to have forgotten that goratings retroactively changes ratings. So whilst Shin might be 3703 now on the 3rd August 2019, if he loses some games in the future his rating for today can change, so e.g. if on 31st August we look back in his history page it could show his rating on 3rd August as 3699.

(Interestingly when a caterpillar metamorphosises into a butterfly, despite being broken down into a gloop it can retain memories: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... periences/)

[Uberdude]

</admin>
Having a thread about a particular pro player of interest in the Professionals section of the forum, and making posts about that player's rating is well within the rules of this forum.

But:

9. Multiple Accounts
Do not create multiple accounts. Do not create new accounts to circumvent moderator action, conceal your identity, or for other purposes. Additional accounts may be permitted for technical reasons - please contact a moderator or admin beforehand if you believe this applies to you.

</admin>

[silviu22]

...it seems to be the only way to know what is the high point achieved by a certain player...

No, it's not the only way; it only seems that way to you. It's widely known that Goratings tracks Elo for individual players. Here are some examples:

Shin Jinseo: https://www.goratings.org/en/players/1313.html

As uberdude said, goratings changes past ratings. If you look at my annoying updates, you will see that on July 21st, Shin Jinseo's rating was 3699 and that it reached 3700 for the 1st time around July 22nd, 2019. I am aware of the link you sent, but the link you posted claims it reached 3700 on May 22nd, which is not correct.

The other link you posted (https://www.goratings.org/en/history/) has the same problem: it doesn't show the exact ratings on that date. And it is possible someone knows the highest rating for Ke Jie. If they do, I would very much like to know.

The closest information that I've seen regarding the high rating for Ke Jie was this:

This has been mentioned before, but both Ke Jie and Park Junghwan had in fact exceed 3670 previously. The WHR algorithm will retroactively update a player's historical rating based on their subsequent performance as a self-correcting mechanism. e.g.

Ke Jie: 3680 on 09/05/2017 - https://web.archive.org/web/20170906033 ... gs.org/en/. His rating was even higher in July of that year when he had the 22-game winning streak.
Park: 3674 on 06/13/2018, https://web.archive.org/web/20180614044 ... gs.org/en/.

So archive.org does take snapshots of web pages at certain times, but they do it only once in a while. So we don't know for sure what was Ke Jie's rating in July 2017. The link you sent claims it was only 3659, but I very much doubt that. I would like to know, but that information seems to be lost.

I don't know whether everybody wants to know Jinseo's highest rating. If they don't, they are more than welcome to ignore my rants. But with the same analysis it seems to me that you also infer nobody else wants to know either. Or that others shouldn't post information you're not interested in. Is this like in high school when only cool kids decides what we should talk about?

The price of free speech is that we have to put up with posts or web pages that don't interest us. Some think cat videos are hilarious, others think they're stupid. Freedom of speech is better than censorship.

[Uberdude]

Shin's poor results against the other very top players continues: he lost the first game of the 1st Baduk TV cup (Korean domestic) final to Park Junghwan. This is his 6th loss since he last beat Park in February 2018. Strangely his win rate wasn't so bad earlier in his career.

[xiayun]

So archive.org does take snapshots of web pages at certain times, but they do it only once in a while. So we don't know for sure what was Ke Jie's rating in July 2017. The link you sent claims it was only 3659, but I very much doubt that. I would like to know, but that information seems to be lost.

Regarding KJ's rating, I looked back in his thread and found this: viewtopic.php?p=221327#p221327. That was after he won 20 straight games. He won two more games before losing to Shi Yue to end his streak, so the 3675 number should be pretty close to his peak rating.

[Uberdude]

Park won the 2nd game too (variations from FineArt commentary on Fox).

[silviu22]

After Shin Jinseo's 3 losses of from this week, goratings dropped his rating from 3703 to 3688. And then it said it was never higher than 3689. So if you don't write down a player's highest rating, you will not see it again.

So it is quite possible that a player's rating right after the last victory in a long winning streak is 14 points higher than what goratings.org shows its highest ever rating.

This assertion is confirmed in Ke Jie's case:

Regarding KJ's rating, I looked back in his thread and found this: viewtopic.php?p=221327#p221327. That was after he won 20 straight games. He won two more games before losing to Shi Yue to end his streak, so the 3675 number should be pretty close to his peak rating.

According to goratings, Ke Jie's rating on July 9, 2017 was 3658, 17 points below what the post indicates (3675).

And for Park Junghwan, his peak seems to have been Feb 7, 2018. goratings.org says now he reached 3670, which means at that time it probably said 3684