Jika vs Kirby

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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Hi Jika,
I'm feeling overwhelmed
Yes, very natural. :)
By "attack elsewhere" I meant "play in a different corner or side...
In that case, you can say, "play elsewhere" -- then, it's very clear.

"attack" has a different meaning than what you meant. :)
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Re: Jika vs Kirby

Post by Jika »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Trying to play along Bill's line, but don't want to copy him.
This looks worse than Bill's
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
but I don't know why.
I assume it is
- because it's not Bill's recommended move ;-)
- because not such a nice bend
- because not connecting the stones that are closer to each other but stretching it (too) far between the handicap stones
- because white can play
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
now, separating my stones (but couldn't he do the same at the upper side/line?)

Would it have been better to play away from the corner, like
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
trying to claim the side (while leaving the corner unattended?) (would that be big or sente - or just stupid?)
Maybe Kirby plays there now? Then I'm in gote again, like when he played on the upper side?
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

For Jika:
If you see something you don't understand or looks confusing, just ask! People here are happy to help you. :)

It's good you tell us you don't understand "big" in Go. OK. I change the checklist for you:
  • Best move ? ( are you sure? :) )
Trying to play along Bill's line, but don't want to copy him.
Actually, that's Kirby's example, not Bill's.
What's the connection between finding the 'best' move and Kirby/Bill's example move ? Think about it, then click 'Show':
There's no connection. :)
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Re: Jika vs Kirby

Post by Bill Spight »

Jika wrote:@ all:

Uh, wow :o !

I really like getting so much information, but right now I'm feeling overwhelmed.
I'm feeling pressure to understand your replies, which I don't (mostly).
You don't have to understand anything now. By the end of this game you will understand a lot. :)
I'm anxious to do something stupid as my next move, and everyone goes "Didn't she read my post?? I won't write again!".
You are a beginner. We expect you to make bad moves. You are not stupid. We will not think that your bad moves are stupid. :D
I'm not sure if it is better (less confusing for me) to make a move, or try to understand all your posts first.
Move first, ask questions later. (If you want to.) By the time this game is over you will understand what we have written today. :)
Please keep in mind that I'm not familiar with go lingo:
By "attack elsewhere" I meant "play in a different corner or side to threaten to make territory there".
In go any reasonable move makes territory or threatens to do so (maybe much later). So we don't call plays attacking plays unless they threaten the opponent's stone or stones. Kirby's play, :w1:, was just a play. Your play, :b2:, attacked :w1:. Not that you can immediately kill or capture it, but the threat is there to do so eventually.
I am attacking?? Oops. It felt like I was defending...
That is mainly psychological. Because you start off with a big lead, you should take the attitude that you are attacking (though some moves will be exceptions).

I know how to make move numbers in the forum diagrams.
However, I want to try variants of our game in an editor, and Chrome Web Go Board seems to be the only one compatible with Eidogo.
However, whenever I place a new stone there, all the move numbers are deleted, which means I have to enter all of them again. Ideas?
But if I edit the diagram manually, there might be no need to upload?
In this format, there is no need to upload a file, just edit the diagram to add a stone. As for go editors, I don't know about Chrome, but the ones I know about can be configured to keep track of the numbers automatically.
Jika wrote:@all: I'm in the dilemma what to do if posts contain ideas what my next good move might be (like crossing sector lines...)
While it is very helpful to see them, I don't want to copy suggestions, but I'm feeling bad if I don't (refusing good moves).
Advice how to deal with that?
The purpose of this game is pedagogical. We want you to learn. :) Including Kirby. ;) So if we give you ideas you can use, so much the better. Feel free. :D Don't worry. You are in no danger of winning this game. ;)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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Re: Jika vs Kirby

Post by Bill Spight »

@Jika

Your play is excellent! :clap: :clap: :clap: It is an attachment to :w3:.

It is actually better than the jump attachment to :w1:, because :b2: already threatens :w1:. If :b2: were not there, the jump attachment to :w1: would also be good, as well as your move. :) If all of your moves are this good, Kirby has no chance. ;)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Re: Jika vs Kirby

Post by Bill Spight »

Variation, for reference.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:w5: strengthens :w1:, but Kirby will not make that play. It is too slow. (If I thought Kirby might make that play, I would not be posting this. :))

However, if he did, Black would have a number of good replies. :b6: is simple and strong. It attacks both :w3: and the :w1: - :w5: combination.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Post by EdLee »

For Jika:
Jika, you can read this any time you want; just for reference:
Would it have been better to play away from the corner, like
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
The answer is partly in post 5.
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Re: Jika vs Kirby

Post by Kirby »

Jika mentioned to me in PM that she was getting a little bit overwhelmed by the comments. I advised that there are pros and cons to reading the comments up front. The benefit is the information you get from the comments. The downside is that it can lead to doubting oneself. :scratch:

I'll leave it up to Jika as to which comments she chooses to read - so if you have something addressed to Jika, it may or may not be seen until the end of the game.
be immersed
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Re: Jika vs Kirby

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I have a little bit less to say about this move. It's a natural response to black's attachment (attach-hane!). Black directly touched my white stone, so playing the hane helps the situation a little bit.

Some other options I briefly considered were:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The sequence above doesn't seem as good. I can make some points on top, maybe, but it seems to just make black solid.

---
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O 3 X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I could try something "fancier", but it seems that both of my groups are just weak, above. I do cut black in this variation, but my cutting stones are weak, so it's not that useful.

---
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I could dive into the 3-3 immediately. It kind of simplifies the game and just keeps black solid, though...

---

I think Jika is playing well - hard to do much at this point.
be immersed
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Re: Jika vs Kirby

Post by Jika »

@Kirby and all:
To clarify, as I mentioned to you all the comments are overwhelming in the way that I'm afraid I don't understand enough to do them justice.

But, as some of you said, I can see later if I understand more, so keep commenting please!!

My main problem is that once I've read the comments, especially Kirby's reasoning, I don't want to copy the good moves he expects or you are recommending because this feels like cheating.
I also assume I would not learn that much if playing moves I copy - I would learn good play, but not receive input regarding my own play.

So I'll try to find a way to not be influenced by the comments.
Maybe, I think Ed said so, plan my move first, and not change it, but read comments afterwards what move would have been advisable.
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Post by EdLee »

Hi Jika, :)
To put things in perspective: if this exact game happened at our Go coffee shop, with a beginner as :black: , and we review this game, I would not have made any comments up to here ( :w5: ). :)

So far, no problem. :mrgreen:

We over-commented, and overwhelmed you; sorry! :blackeye:
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Re: Jika vs Kirby

Post by Jika »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I want to help the stone Kirby is attacking.
- Edit: I think he is attacking now?? -
Moreover, I'm hoping this will help keeping my stones somehow connected in a kind of bend. But the bend is too far from the corner.
I'm not happy with my 4-4 handicap stone either. Poor stone, a gift left somehow behind?
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Jika:
I think he is attacking now??
Well, it's a fight, isn't it? :)

Hint:
Count: how many :white: stones here ?
How many :black: stones here ?
Who has more stones here ?
Tryss
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Re: Jika vs Kirby

Post by Tryss »

Jika :
What are the answers by white to your move that you considered ? Where would you play now if you were white ?
Bill Spight
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Re: Jika vs Kirby

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
In addition to defending :b4:, :b6: attacks :w1:. :) It is a dual purpose move.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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