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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #41 Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:58 am 
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@ Jika:

Another excellent move! :clap: :clap: :clap:

----

BTW, there are good ways to produce diagrams from SGF files. See, for instance, https://senseis.xmp.net/tools/sgf2diagram.php :)

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #42 Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:53 am 
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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 7 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Can’t see a reasonable alternative

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Offline Jika
 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #43 Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:01 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I had to change the move numbers because it would not accept "10".
Is that normal?

I decided to do the obvious to connect my stones.

I considered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


to claim territory there and connect with the 10-4 (correct?) stone.
However, the consequences for my group seem bad.


Would someone please, please go back to my last move and comment on my question, why 4-5 is better than 4-6? Thanks!!
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #44 Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:26 am 
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@ Jika

Another good move. :)

Look at the diagram code for two ways to handle the move numbers. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 X 0 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm9
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #45 Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:34 am 
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Hi Jika,

Please see the diagram texts for more samples: :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 X 0 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | O X O X O X O X O X 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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Offline Jika
 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #46 Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:11 am 
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Thank you!

@EdLee: I didn't know that cropping the board like this was possible.

There is still something I don't understand: I figured "0" meant "increment 1".
But this does not work:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | O X O X O X O X O X 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


What's wrong?
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Offline EdLee
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Post #47 Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:19 am 
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Hi Jika, you're welcome. :)
Quote:
I figured "0" meant "increment 1".
"0" does not mean +1. :)
Please see these diagram texts:
Notice the little (m)ove_number after the (W)hite at the start. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . 1 . 9 . 0 . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . 1 . 9 . 0 . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . 1 . 9 . 0 . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm21
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . 1 . 9 . 0 . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm31
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . 1 . 9 . 0 . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #48 Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:24 am 
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As for the 6-4:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm8
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . C W C B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . W B W 2 C . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . C B 1 W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After :b8: :w9: will cut the Black position up. Black will have three weak units (marked), two singletons and a pair of connected stones. There are four cutting points (marked). It is true that White also has weak stones (marked). This is a complicated position, and best play is far from obvious.

My own sense is that this is objectively worse for Black than the game. However, the most important difference is that the game produces a strong, solid position for Black with a weak White single stone that has little chance of living. At worst, Black will make 10-15 pts. of territory locally, while the White group in the center is still not completely alive. In this diagram, however, White has many chances to make gains in the complicated fighting to come. Remember, Black does not want to lose a big battle. With good play Black can come out OK, but things could easily go downhill. As a practical matter, this type of complicated position favors White in a handicap game.

P. S. In diagrams 0 stands for 10.

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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Offline EdLee
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Post #49 Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:39 am 
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Hi Bill,
Quote:
In diagrams 0 stands for 10.
I'm a bit confused about this myself.

With no Start (m)ove and no start color: $$: 1= :b1:, 9= :b9:, and 0= :w10:.
With $$B: 1= :b1:, 9= :b9: , and 0= :w10: (same as default).
With $$W: 1= :w1:, 9= :w9: , and 0= :b10:.

With $$Wm11: 1= :w11: , 9= :w19:, and 0= :b20:.
With $$Bm11: 1= :b11: , 9= :b19:, and 0= :w20:.

For all this to be consistent, here's one interpretation:
No Start (m)ove implies m=1.
No start color implies (B)lack :black: .

'0' = (m - 1) +10.
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Offline jlt
 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #50 Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:50 am 
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If the move indicator is n (for instance with m11, n=11), the number k in the diagram code represents move n-1+k if k=1,2,...,9, and represents move n-1+10 if k=0.

If no move indicator is specified then n=1 by default.

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Offline EdLee
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Post #51 Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:53 am 
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@Jika:
Quote:
...last move... why 4-5 is better than 4-6?
For clarity, consider to use exact move numbers and coördinates.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , C T . . . , . . . T C , . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . T . . . . . . . . . . . T . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Notice on the top half:
4-5 = D15, E16, P16, Q15 ;
4-6 = D14, F16, o16, Q14 ;
( Two of each for the top right corner in question. )

For clarity, consider: "why was Q15 better than Q14 for :b8: ? "
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #52 Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:26 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I’d like to split up the board here.

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Offline EdLee
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Post #53 Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:47 am 
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@Jika:
Quote:
I’d like to split up the board here.
Very common :white: procedure.
( I just did it as :white: at the coffee shop tonight in these handi games: 9-stone, 5-stone, 4-stone, 4-stone. )
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Offline Jika
 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #54 Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:42 am 
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Replies, not addressing the latest move:

@Kirby:
Quote:
Can’t see a reasonable alternative

Imagine, I was opening your previous comment excitedly, expecting a wise analysis of at least 3 different moves... :lol:

@jlt: After being confused for a moment (wait, even more letters?) I appreciate that you are keeping variables and parameters separate :salute:

@EdLee: Sorry, I would have preferred to name the coordinates like that, but in a different thread someone objected. But it was a different scenario, there it was a tsumego, where rotational symmetry probably is the reason people don't want letters (I guess).
For a whole board/game, I'd prefer letter+number too.

@EdLee, latest post: Either I don't understand, or (given Kirby's move) you are quoting him?
If quote, it is not a real cheat, is it? I would not have known it is called "dividing", though.

But since I read it, I'm wondering how I can tell if a hidden comment is addressing one of my questions or the ongoing game?
(I'm honestly doing my best not to read game-/move-related comments before posting my move.)
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Offline EdLee
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Post #55 Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:16 pm 
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@Jika:
post #1 wrote:
Jika is free to look at the hide tags, and read what I've written, before making his move.
post #23 wrote:
I'll leave it up to Jika as to which comments she chooses to read
Quote:
I'm honestly doing my best not to read game-/move-related comments before posting my move.
From Kirby's explanation right at the start of this game, we all understood this is a teaching game, and that you may, but are not required to, read any hidden comments by Kirby ( or others addressed specifically to you, unless explicitly stated not for you to read; from my understanding, it seems all other posters so far also have this understanding, and we all assume you're free, but not required to, read any comments before your move. ) :)
Quote:
I would not have known it is called "dividing", though.
To divide is not Go lingo; it's just normal usage, but something you may not be aware of previously. :)
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Offline Jika
 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #56 Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:17 am 
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@EdLee:

I'm sorry if I offended you!
I remember Kirby's post, because we exchanged PM's on that too.

I'm just trying to find a way for me not to be influenced by (anyone's) comments before I make my move.
I really appreciate all comments.
But I'm afraid I would learn less from the teaching game if I read the comments first.

Later, I read Kirby's comment and all comments on moves.

It just happened that, after receiving so many helpful comments from you and Bill on creating diagrams, I thought that next comment was on diagrams too.

So I'd better not read any comments the come after Kirby has played as long as I have not.

Again, sorry!
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Offline EdLee
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Post #57 Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:22 am 
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Hi Jika :)
I'm not offended, at all. :) :tmbup:
Quote:
But I'm afraid I would learn less from the teaching game if I read the comments first.
Education is such a tricky, tricky thing! :blackeye:

It is extremely difficult to determine what works best for you, in terms of Go progress. :)
Quote:
But I'm afraid I would learn less from the teaching game if I read the comments first.
I haven't spent hours on this, so this analogy just popped up, after a few moments; let's see if it helps you a little bit.

It's like you're learning to ride a bicycle for the first time.
And your friends are giving you lots and lots of advice, from the side.
However, none of us are on your bicycle.

Only you are on your bicycle. You determine exactly what happens to the bike.
We are not the ones falling; only you do the falling. We are not the ones going smoothly on the bike; it is only you.

At your current phase in Go, there is an enormous amount of knowledge missing in your tools bag. Whether you read the comments before or after will not make any significant change in this enormous knowledge gap between you and Kirby.

You can read all the comments. Or none. It really won't matter so much! :mrgreen:
( That's why people have said this quite a few times: just enjoy and play! )
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Offline Jika
 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #58 Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:08 am 
Lives with ko

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Thanks, EdLee.

Just to clarify for all of you: I'm not obsessing about my moves to "fight" Kirby. And I have no doubt who will win this game!!
I'm a very (very) analytical person.
Which probably makes me a slow learner.
(I learnt to ride the bicycle long after everyone else because I needed to watch others a lot, analysing what which body part is supposed to do. The first weeks I kept hitting things because I was watching my feet.)

So, my joy is in the analysis of possible moves.
Of course I want to find a good move, but for the sake of finding it.
I'm eager to learn, but I'm not competitive.

This post by Jika was liked by: Kirby
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Offline EdLee
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Post #59 Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:08 pm 
Honinbo
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Hi Jika,
Quote:
I'm a very (very) analytical person.
Which probably makes me a slow learner.
For certain things, maybe yes. :)
Quote:
... because I needed to watch others a lot, analysing what which body part is supposed to do. The first weeks I kept hitting things because I was watching my feet.
Yes, and ( at least ) 2 nice lessons here for you:
  • in retrospect, would you still say you needed all that watching ? I'd argue no, all the (over-)watching didn't help you so much; for example:
  • how did you miss the fact that nobody was watching their feet from all your (over-)watching ? :) ( answer: you probably saw nobody was looking at their feet, but your brain still couldn't help it: this is because it was a subconscious decision from fear; and only when you were able to consciously realize there's nothing to be gained by staring at your feet and consciously override your subconscious fear were you able to break through and look far ahead at your path. :) ) You didn't learn this from watching others; you learned this from riding, which is direct personal experience to train your neural nets! ( Just like Go. )

Critical thinking/analysis has its place, certainly.

But in some areas, such as Go, riding a bike, over-analysis as a beginner can be extremely inefficient and ineffective: from my personal anecdotes observing adult beginners the past 15 years, I'd 95% of adult beginners fall into this trap. ( Kids usually don't have this issue, in Go. ) :)

Very difficult for adult beginners to stop over-analysis and just trust the more experienced advice: just play ( "Finish your first 100 games ASAP." ) :)
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Offline Jika
 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #60 Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:15 am 
Lives with ko

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@EdLee:

You are right concerning the bike.

However, after meeting someone on OGS who went from beginner to 15k within 4 months by just playing, I started making a list, going from 100 played normal time OGS-games to 100 lost games (which was identical with the exception of 1 game I won against a 25k).

I had the strong feeling I have not learned anything from them.
My stones were killed, killed, captured, killed, and it went so fast I could not see why.

Someone posted in an other thread "Do what you enjoy". I did not enjoy that above, but I will take up faster games again, because of your advice. Edit. "Hide"
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