65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:37 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

unkx80 · Post by **unkx80** » Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:27 am

uglyboxer wrote:
unkx80 wrote:
$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X b . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X b . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Better move? If a then b; if b then a (yeowch!).

$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X 1 . . . . d . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X 1 . . . . d . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If b then a, what is whites follow up to c? Black would not be in trouble and white would have to make a low move like d to live, no?

Kie · Post by **Kie** » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:31 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X X O . W . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:32 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X X O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X O X B . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

this variation might have been tighter...but i dont think i need to be that tight.
i will just be happy with spliting his group. either way i think i have advantage.
soon as i get my sente i will play at "a" and get more points for me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X X O . W . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X O X . 3 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O O 1 . 5 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:44 pm

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:32 am

Harleqin wrote:
I think that Magicwand should put "Either way, I have the advantage." into his signature. It would save him a lot of typing.

calm · Post by **calm** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:38 am

This game must really have Magicwand worried. He seems to have aged overnight.

calm · Post by **calm** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:41 am

Chew Terr wrote:
Harleqin wrote:
I think that Magicwand should put "Either way, I have the advantage." into his signature. It would save him a lot of typing.

Perhaps he's got something there. I swear I gain two stones when I'm in a confident mood. =D

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:46 am

calm wrote:
Chew Terr wrote:
Harleqin wrote:
I think that Magicwand should put "Either way, I have the advantage." into his signature. It would save him a lot of typing.

Perhaps he's got something there. I swear I gain two stones when I'm in a confident mood. =D

Is it that being confident makes you play two stones stronger or that playing two stones stronger makes you confident?

Violence · Post by **Violence** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:03 pm

Kie wrote:
It's often possible to win games like this because the oponent makes mistakes and sort of kill themselves, but against strong players, you do need something more. You need the will to win, trying to plan ahead of your oponent, lure him into your strategies and traps and so forth. I lack that right now.

I have some serious training to do to get out of this lazy kind of playing. I don't think I can surpass my current level unless I make some serious change.

Tommie · Post by **Tommie** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:11 am

Hello All,
I just entered to watch this thread, as I was busy for many months
and quite absent from GD / Lifein19x19.

Hence, I saw the last moves an are not sure in how much I should hide my comment,
as it is about Kie's double-hane which already happened
and the expected subsequent cut + separation appeared as well.

However, some moves appearing in the diagrams have not yet been played (no matter how obvious they are)

Could s.o. else decide when it is ok to lok at the hidden diagrams?
Perhaps it is safe to wait another 5 game moves?

Kie wrote:

Kie wrote:
$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I did not expect that. Either way, he forced my hand here, I can only answer with the double hane.

For me, it's better to resign that let black play something like this:

$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course, black will cut now (that's what I said last time, but this time it's even more impossible not to), so I have some options now. I can run at (a) or play at (b).

Of course, playing at (b) means that my 4 stones can be killed, but only at the cost of white getting a sente-ponnuki in the center. If black connects it reduced the liberties of his top group, which makes it easier to run with (a) afterwards.

The only real question here is whether the ponnuki is enough compensation or not. I think so but I'm not 100% sure.

$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X O . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b X O 2 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X X O . a . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . b X O 2 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I would like to discuss Kie's double-hane.

I only considered (firstly) extension :wc: here,
resp. this is what springs first to miy mind,
as it strengthens the white group with a seemingly 'natural' move.

If Black wishes to continue pushing a-b-c-d,
it could be welcomed, as this is the kind of gained strength (worryfree group) which often pays off much later for White.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . a W . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . c b . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . d . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As black

is big & disturbing for white's corner group alone
(perhaps W defends with D)
AND
separates it from the outside,
I would ask myself WHY I would block the only bit of route to the outside (P),
resp. cut in black's position (Q)?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . d . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . p . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . q . . W . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As I can expect :bc:

, I would (as white) not like to push Black around my own position
AND get cut @ X:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . d . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . p 2 X O x . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . q . 1 W . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Kie critized his/her own connection :w1:

.
However, I prefer it over the played double-hane for the reasons given below:

The connection :w1:

has a (indeed slow) honte feeling (for me).

However, as a plus (IMO), still the weaknesses P, Q in black's area would remain.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . p . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . q . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Perhaps Black would play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X O O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 3 . O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . p . X O W . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . q . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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If Kie can handle all the three cut groups (3; = D15, H12, J15) in the game
then perhaps still everthing can be ok,
and the difference is just a matter of style.

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Are there any opinions on Kie's double-hane, connection or nobi?

Life In 19x19

65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)

Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)

Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)

Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)

Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)

Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)

Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)

Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)

Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)

Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)

Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d)

Re: 65. Magicwand (4d) - Kie (3d) ATTEMPT for TEWARI?