KataGo review (score delta based)

Create a study plan, track your progress and hold yourself accountable.
Post Reply
Gomoto
Gosei
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:56 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: Earth
Has thanked: 621 times
Been thanked: 310 times

KataGo review (score delta based)

Post by Gomoto »

I tried to use KataGo's score delta for reviewing my games and think it is a nice option. I am aware that the shown scores are only estimates and do not represent absolute truth. But I think they provides nice insight into the relative value of different moves.

This is a game with negative komi (-5.5) so black is ahead "17 points" according to KataGo.
ka1.JPG
ka1.JPG (116.79 KiB) Viewed 14906 times
Gomoto
Gosei
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:56 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: Earth
Has thanked: 621 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: KataGo review (score delta based)

Post by Gomoto »

In the first picture you see the standard joseki answers
ka2.JPG
ka2.JPG (115.65 KiB) Viewed 14905 times
But I prefer a different move, just to not play as my opponent is expecting. The score estimate difference by KataGO is not big.
ka3.JPG
ka3.JPG (116.63 KiB) Viewed 14905 times
Gomoto
Gosei
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:56 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: Earth
Has thanked: 621 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: KataGo review (score delta based)

Post by Gomoto »

Blacks advantage is melting step by step, there are slightly better options for him to play. I form two enclosures because that is my way to go. I do not mind small differences in score estimate if I can steer the game to my liking.
ka4.JPG
ka4.JPG (117.22 KiB) Viewed 14905 times
Gomoto
Gosei
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:56 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: Earth
Has thanked: 621 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: KataGo review (score delta based)

Post by Gomoto »

This move is a small mistake by me, I should have kicked at C15. But if your opponent does not punish your mistakes it is not a big deal. If your goal is to improve you should play against stronger players from time to time, alternativly you have to look for your errors with the help of AI while reviewing your games.
ka5.JPG
ka5.JPG (117.33 KiB) Viewed 14904 times
Gomoto
Gosei
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:56 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: Earth
Has thanked: 621 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: KataGo review (score delta based)

Post by Gomoto »

Interestingly black looses some points with this standard looking answer.
ka6.JPG
ka6.JPG (118.14 KiB) Viewed 14901 times
dfan
Gosei
Posts: 1598
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:49 am
Rank: AGA 2k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Has thanked: 891 times
Been thanked: 534 times
Contact:

Re: KataGo review (score delta based)

Post by dfan »

My understanding was that the jump to R14 is considered okay for White, but only if the ladder to capture the R14 stone doesn't work, and in fact Black would often next play a move like F3 to set that ladder up - but in this game the stone is already there! So I'm surprised that KataGo (which does understand ladders) doesn't consider it to be more of a loss in this case, although it does definitely want Black to push (and presumably cut) in response.
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: KataGo review (score delta based)

Post by Bill Spight »

Gomoto wrote:Interestingly black looses some points with this standard looking answer.
ka6.JPG
Standard looking to whom? To me this block on the third line looks like standard human loss aversion by Black. "This land is my land, it is not your land." ;)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Gomoto
Gosei
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:56 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: Earth
Has thanked: 621 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: KataGo review (score delta based)

Post by Gomoto »

ka2b.JPG
ka2b.JPG (118.04 KiB) Viewed 14899 times
Gomoto
Gosei
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:56 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: Earth
Has thanked: 621 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: KataGo review (score delta based)

Post by Gomoto »

@Bill: locally KataGo likes the crosscut variation for black, allthough it recommends the push at R15. I like that you have a good name for the kind of move in the real game.
ka3b.JPG
ka3b.JPG (115.56 KiB) Viewed 14895 times
Last edited by Gomoto on Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
Gomoto
Gosei
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:56 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: Earth
Has thanked: 621 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: KataGo review (score delta based)

Post by Gomoto »

This move is a mistake for white.
ka7.JPG
ka7.JPG (118.16 KiB) Viewed 14893 times
Gomoto
Gosei
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:56 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: Earth
Has thanked: 621 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: KataGo review (score delta based)

Post by Gomoto »

The exchange at Q14 was not good for black.
ka8.JPG
ka8.JPG (118.36 KiB) Viewed 14892 times
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: KataGo review (score delta based)

Post by Bill Spight »

Gomoto wrote:This move is a small mistake by me, I should have kicked at C15. But if your opponent does not punish your mistakes it is not a big deal. If your goal is to improve you should play against stronger players from time to time, alternativly you have to look for your errors with the help of AI while reviewing your games.
Bridge champion Marshall Miles once commented on how he and his partner, Eddie Kantar, kept in trim while playing in local games, which they did most of the time, instead of tournaments. Local games, OC, had a weaker field. He said that they played every hand as though their opponents were national champions. :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Gomoto
Gosei
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:56 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: Earth
Has thanked: 621 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: KataGo review (score delta based)

Post by Gomoto »

White misses the chance to turn at Q13 just now.
ka9.JPG
ka9.JPG (115.83 KiB) Viewed 14892 times
Gomoto
Gosei
Posts: 1733
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:56 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: Earth
Has thanked: 621 times
Been thanked: 310 times

Re: KataGo review (score delta based)

Post by Gomoto »

I think I stop my review here. I just intended to show this kind of self review, because I enjoy the score estimates by KataGo a lot while my own analyzing.

Have fun if you like to use KataGo in such a way yourself.
Post Reply