This showed up in a recent game I played.
In my actual game, I got muscled out of the corner. I don't even want to show you the moves, it was embarrassing. It started with Black hane at a and then it led to a ko, it was just a mess. I suppose I could have pincered White's approach to the 4-4, but I didn't want to just ignore such a brazen bump up against my corner.
What I'd like to know is, what are some common approaches and responses to the 3-4 point keima corner enclosure? All I can find are joseki related to the 3-4 point, without the enclosure already in place. How might I start thinking about this situation?
How to start thinking about enclosure approach?
-
Applebaps
- Dies in gote
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:26 am
- Rank: DDK Life
- GD Posts: 0
- Universal go server handle: Applebaps
- Online playing schedule: Evenings M-F UTC-9, Saturday mornings
- Has thanked: 129 times
- Been thanked: 27 times
How to start thinking about enclosure approach?
Joseki (n): 1. Japanese term meaning "when Jo lives in seki."
-
TelegraphGo
- Lives with ko
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:32 am
- Rank: AGA 4 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- Universal go server handle: telegraphgo
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 18 times
Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach?
The reason you can't find any information on "approaching" a 3-4 enclosure is that it is strong. Approaching a group implies that you want to play stones near it, and playing close to strong groups (aka thickness) is rarely the correct direction.
If you do find yourself playing near a 3-4 enclosure you usually should play some sort of attachment or shoulder hit, with the intent of overstrengthening the enclosure. In Gomoto's sequence, white gets a few stones outside and takes an extension, while black takes the corner really really thoroughly. This is a pretty standard idea. The thought is that if white had extended without attaching first, black would approach the group with an extension from the corner. If black plays such a move now, it will be attacked instead of building.
It sounds like a good result for white, but if W never pressured from the outside like this, the enclosure does still have some invasion aji, way down the line. Black got rid of that, so it's actually a pretty even trade.
Once attachment style fighting starts, just do your best to keep your stones either strong or well-sacrificed. The correct sequence is highly dependent on the rest of the other stones nearby, so I don't think it's really important to memorize any more than the line Gomoto gave.
If you do find yourself playing near a 3-4 enclosure you usually should play some sort of attachment or shoulder hit, with the intent of overstrengthening the enclosure. In Gomoto's sequence, white gets a few stones outside and takes an extension, while black takes the corner really really thoroughly. This is a pretty standard idea. The thought is that if white had extended without attaching first, black would approach the group with an extension from the corner. If black plays such a move now, it will be attacked instead of building.
It sounds like a good result for white, but if W never pressured from the outside like this, the enclosure does still have some invasion aji, way down the line. Black got rid of that, so it's actually a pretty even trade.
Once attachment style fighting starts, just do your best to keep your stones either strong or well-sacrificed. The correct sequence is highly dependent on the rest of the other stones nearby, so I don't think it's really important to memorize any more than the line Gomoto gave.
-
Uberdude
- Judan
- Posts: 6727
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
- Rank: UK 4 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Uberdude 4d
- OGS: Uberdude 7d
- Location: Cambridge, UK
- Has thanked: 436 times
- Been thanked: 3718 times
Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach?
You could browse some of the possible sequences at http://josekipedia.com/#path:qdtt
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
I got muscled out of the corner. ... It was a mess...
How might I start thinking about this situation?
Hi Applebaps,The correct sequence is highly dependent on the rest of the other stones nearby
To reiterate existing replies: studying contact fights is very helpful. Examples: Bruce Wilcox's Contact Fights; Go problems, life-and-death problems, tesuji problems; (human or AI) sequence references, with emphasis on local techniques. (Global evaluation is of course always important, too; another beast.)
-
Kirby
- Honinbo
- Posts: 9553
- Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Kirby
- Tygem: 커비라고해
- Has thanked: 1583 times
- Been thanked: 1707 times
Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach?
I'm curious, now. I'll try to guess what happened..Applebaps wrote:This showed up in a recent game I played.
In my actual game, I got muscled out of the corner. I don't even want to show you the moves, it was embarrassing. It started with Black hane at a and then it led to a ko, it was just a mess.
Something like this? If that *is* what happened, you might consider this alternative:
be immersed
-
Applebaps
- Dies in gote
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:26 am
- Rank: DDK Life
- GD Posts: 0
- Universal go server handle: Applebaps
- Online playing schedule: Evenings M-F UTC-9, Saturday mornings
- Has thanked: 129 times
- Been thanked: 27 times
Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach?
Very helpful posts, everyone, thank you!
Got my work cut out for me, then, as usual.
Got my work cut out for me, then, as usual.
Joseki (n): 1. Japanese term meaning "when Jo lives in seki."
-
atn
- Beginner
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 11:54 pm
- Rank: EGF 9k
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach?
There is a huge work done on sensei library for such questions.
For example, I found this one: https://senseis.xmp.net/?35AttachmentAg ... rEnclosure
ATN
For example, I found this one: https://senseis.xmp.net/?35AttachmentAg ... rEnclosure
ATN
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach?
There are at least two books about enclosure josekis.atn wrote:There is a huge work done on sensei library for such questions.
For example, I found this one: https://senseis.xmp.net/?35AttachmentAg ... rEnclosure
ATN
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
TheLemon
- Beginner
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:50 am
- Rank: Low dan
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: How to start thinking about enclosure approach?
With black a or b a simple response is white pulling back at c. Black b unsettles white while defending the corner whereas a lets white easily turn the probe into an extra long extension. With both a and b white can simply tenuki leaving a lot of aji, or sacrifice 
, for this reason iron pillars are a common defense.
Evaluating the simple response is important, it is not great if the opponent can gain an edge by straightforward solid play. In this case pushing along a gives white a base while connecting with
and leaves the corner open. With b there is no sliding into the corner, no base for white and a easy split of and because of the connection underneath.
, for this reason iron pillars are a common defense.Evaluating the simple response is important, it is not great if the opponent can gain an edge by straightforward solid play. In this case pushing along a gives white a base while connecting with
and leaves the corner open. With b there is no sliding into the corner, no base for white and a easy split of and because of the connection underneath.Triangular Go: http://triangulargo.club/