The invasion that never gets played.

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Gomoto
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The invasion that never gets played.

Post by Gomoto »

Let's consider this position
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . .
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
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Gomoto
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Re: The invasion that never gets played.

Post by Gomoto »

Pros are entering at a and b, but never at x. Amateurs do and the bots consider this a valid option too.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . x . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a . . . . b . O . .
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
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Gomoto
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Re: The invasion that never gets played.

Post by Gomoto »

Let us explore a possible line in this game:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Kudo Norio, 9d - Ishida Yoshio, 9d, B+3.5 (Komi 5.5)
34th Honinbo League, 1979-02-15
Last edited by Gomoto on Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gomoto
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Re: The invasion that never gets played.

Post by Gomoto »

Looks playable to me too. What do you think; Why the invasion at x in the top diagramm is never touched in professional games?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . 9 0 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . 5 3 7 O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O 6 4 . 8 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Gomoto
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Re: The invasion that never gets played.

Post by Gomoto »

And perhaps we could learn from the bots in hindsight, the more sensible extension for white is perhaps:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . W . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
But I am also very interested in your views, if you beg to differ. (The pros probably know quite well what they are doing ;-))
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Bill Spight
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Re: The invasion that never gets played.

Post by Bill Spight »

Gomoto wrote:Looks playable to me too. What do you think; Why the invasion at x in the top diagramm is never touched in professional games?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . 9 0 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . 5 3 7 O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O 6 4 . 8 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Cultural blind spot.

It's not like pros have not identified x as a weak point. However, in the history of go the position in the top left has scarcely occurred before the 20th century, if at all. And the invasions at a and b have a much longer history in similar shapes. I suspect that they produced satisfactory results in the estimation of humans, and no further exploration was done.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: The invasion that never gets played.

Post by Bill Spight »

Gomoto wrote:And perhaps we could learn from the bots in hindsight, the more sensible extension for white is perhaps:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . W . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
That extension appears 20 times in Waltheri. I recall that Segoe recommended it in some positions in his Strategy Dictionary (Sakusen Jiten). :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: The invasion that never gets played.

Post by Bill Spight »

Kudo Norio, 9d - Ishida Yoshio, 9d, 1979-02-15
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Elf's mainline variation for :b33:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . 2 . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Ishida did not invade, but played the checking extension at a on the right side. In its commentary Elf prefers the invasion by 7½%. I suspect that this variation is psychologically difficult for humans, as each side surrenders what it has staked out, and the evaluation is not easy.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Elf's variation 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O 5 b . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is Elf's second choice for :w34:, with a winrate estimate 1½% less. Elf stops at :b37: because of insufficient playouts for later plays. I expect that the variation will continue Black a - White b.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Elf's variation 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . 3 5 O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . 4 6 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:w34: is Elf's third choice, with a winrate estimate 2½% less. OC, both estimates are within Elf's margin of error.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Elf's variation 3, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X O 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 4 X X O 1 . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O O 2 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is as far as this Elf variation goes. Black may continue at a, or maybe tenuki.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Gomoto
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Re: The invasion that never gets played.

Post by Gomoto »

Bill, thanks for your deeper look. Did you check Elf's opinion on 34 at C17 as well?
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Bill Spight
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Re: The invasion that never gets played.

Post by Bill Spight »

Gomoto wrote:Bill, thanks for your deeper look. Did you check Elf's opinion on 34 at C17 as well?
Not on Elf's radar. IOW, it got no more than 1500 playouts. Elf's third choice got 3.9k playouts. The Elf team plainly does not trust plays with fewer than 1500 playouts. I don't know about 1500 exactly. ;)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Gomoto
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Re: The invasion that never gets played.

Post by Gomoto »

Elfv1 is not fond of the sequence.
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Bill Spight
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Re: The invasion that never gets played.

Post by Bill Spight »

Gomoto wrote:Elfv1 is not fond of the sequence.
Err, which sequence? Thanks. :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Gomoto
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Re: The invasion that never gets played.

Post by Gomoto »

This one :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . 9 0 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . 5 3 7 O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O 6 4 . 8 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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