How is your positional judgement? Game 21

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:21 pm

Game 21

As usual, we assume area scoring with 7½ pt. komi.

After

Elf estimates a winrate of 91½% for one player. Which player is it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Enjoy!

TelegraphGo · Post by **TelegraphGo** » Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:44 pm

My first instinct: White white white. It looks so much more active and white has the hugely important sente. B's side is pretty big, though, and the variations I'm reading aren't very clear. This one is particularly interesting, because I feel like I can play out the whole game so far.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Who knows for the first 7 moves $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not sure on who took which corner first but almost no doubt that this was the position after move 10. So far I would guess 50/50 or B slightly ahead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Order might be a little different $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 0 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 8 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 7 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

W's moves all look ok, so certainly not more than 65% for B yet. Actually, I thought that B wasn't supposed to allow W to get this cut and take the corner like they did in game. Is W is already winning? My joseki knowledge is kyu-level.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc End at the double hane. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . 2 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 6 X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is where the big swings happen, so let's look closely. The exchange of 3 for 4 isn't too shabby for B, but in the corner B wishes they didn't have to play 1 and 5 protecting the same cut, rather move 1 down a few lines. I approve of 6 and 7. 8 is maybe a little aggressive, instinct tells me to try to ladder or loosely net 3 instead, but I can see why 8 might be better than those. 9 is the logical response. 10 is the reasonable continuation, since B has so many weaknesses nearby, but B's double hane seems to work really well. You'd think that W should win with double atari, but B's plan is to sacrifice the one stone to capture the middle stones in a ladder.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm32 White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X 5 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 6 O X 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This instinctually should be disaster for W - but actually on evaluation even this doesn't look THAT bad. Thus when W plays a more modest move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm32 White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'd expect W to be far ahead. The only moves I see that could be big mistakes seem to be B's, other than W's aggression 28 and 30, but it's hard to convince myself that those are such horrid mistakes. So I'm going to go with my first instinct, but I'm actually really eager to see the AI analysis of this one.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:34 pm

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:57 pm

Someone has made order mistakes in this joseki variation.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:26 pm

Bki · Post by **Bki** » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:32 pm

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:32 pm

White should have sticked to its initial plan. I definitly imagine myself commiting the same mistake. White decided to put more weight on a general rule and did not acknowledge the concrete position enough. Lost a game today myself in a similar way, although I did not wrongly prevent a "ponuki". In my case it was the general rule "connecting" that stopped me from playing the proper move. Both in this game and in my game the efficiency of the "general rule" move and the "practical" move was not evaluated correctly by the failing players. In any case my blunder was much bigger than the pros, about 10 versus 5 points

. (Intuition should have trumped formal knowledge, perhaps I learn to trust my intuition even more versus formal knowledge in cases where actual counting seems too difficult for me.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . O . O X . | $$ | . . . X a . . . . . . . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . b O . . . . . , . . . X O X . X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After I evaluated the white double hane stone at C3 will survive, I was wrongly satisfied with white connecting at a and dismissed the clearly superior white b.

bayu · Post by **bayu** » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:05 am

This game looks vaguely familiar, but I can't recollect from where. It feels like white knows what he's doing, so white should be ahead. I'd probably play at a next to fix the shape and black has to take care of his cutting points so that white keeps sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:08 am

LZ analysis - confirms my no-LZ analysis but with a very interesting main line

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:04 pm

John Tilley · Post by **John Tilley** » Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:43 am

Bill - Thank you for winding the clock back for me! I was just getting into Go in the mid 1960s and I bought the 3 volume Nihon Kiin Fundamental Series in the summer of 19xx and they sent me a free copy of Kido which included this game. I can still name the players, year and round of this title match after some 52 years. A very similar opening occurred two games later of course in that match.

Best Wishes - John

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:05 am

John Tilley wrote:Bill - Thank you for winding the clock back for me! I was just getting into Go in the mid 1960s and I bought the 3 volume Nihon Kiin Fundamental Series in the summer of 19xx and they sent me a free copy of Kido which included this game. I can still name the players, year and round of this title match after some 52 years. A very similar opening occurred two games later of course in that match.

Its the 1967 Honinbo Title Match Game 3 between Sakata (White) and Rin.
Best Wishes - John

This game made a big impression on me.

I forget when I first saw it. I wasn't ready for Kido, when I was in Japan. Igo Club was more my speed. I remember that someone took me up to meet the editor of Go World in the Chuo Kaikan. I'm pretty sure it wasn't Bozulich. Maybe Dowsey or you?

John Tilley · Post by **John Tilley** » Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:45 am

Bill's starting position after Black 31 with an advantage of 91.6% to one player is fascinating, however in the actual match there must have been a lot of stress and doubt for Black. White has pressed down and is building on a grand scale and Black must have had some serious doubts. I am sure Bill will do a summary of this game eventually, but note it gets top billing for White in a selection of his games published in 1970 - 24 pages, 18 figures and 44 explanatory diagrams.

In real life facing some opponents across the board must be really tough, because of their reputation. No names in the "Hide" button - just their respective ages.

Hopefully we will see some more AI analysis.

Bill - I think you meant to say that either I or Stuart Dowsey introduced you to Mr Yosida, who was editor of the English language magazine "Go Monthly Review".

John Tilley

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:53 pm

John Tilley wrote:Hopefully we will see some more AI analysis.

Oh, you bet!

Bill - I think you meant to say that either I or Stuart Dowsey introduced you to Mr Yosida, who was editor of the English language magazine "Go Monthly Review".

John Tilley

Thanks, I had forgotten Yosida's name, as well as the magazine's.

The memory came back to me when I read your note. IIRC, one of you took me upstairs at the Kiin to meet him. He gave me a complimentary copy of Go Monthly Review. I didn't subscribe to it, but I did take Igo Kurabu. Later I subscribed to Kido, which I till miss.

xela · Post by **xela** » Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:03 am

A bit late to the party here (so many other interesting conversations on this board over the past two weeks!), but since the official solution hasn't been posted yet, I'll hazard my own guess before peeking at others'.

Life In 19x19

How is your positional judgement? Game 21

How is your positional judgement? Game 21

Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 21

Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 21

Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 21

Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 21

Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 21

Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 21

Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 21

Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 21

Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 21

Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 21

Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 21

Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 21

Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 21

Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 21