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 Post subject: 5k vs 5k how to handle influence fuseki
Post #1 Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:35 am 
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Hi all,

I play sometimes with this player and he always plays for influence with the triangle opening. I struggle really hard but I always finish fuseki with a position that I don't like at all: he always gets a magnificent influence, even if I infiltrate he stops my stones easily and I loses almost every time with 10 points or so, even if he make overplays like in the top right of this game.

Needless to say that if I ever try to play like him, trying to emphatize influence and center control I will end up 20-30 point BEHIND with my opponent getting 3 corners and long sides while I'm left only with few points in the center and that's pretty frustrating (for me of course). And if I even dare to play moyo game my opponents settle inside with easy reduction or sabaki and same outcome like before. Clearly when I play against moyo game I play inside, my opponent lets me live small and I'm left with few points in the corner and my opponent dominates the center and for each influence stone he gets a million points lol.

1) Can you please give me some advice (mainly on game direction) in the opening to counter his strategy?
2) Any help on my mistake is pretty much appreciated.

Thanks in advance


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 Post subject: Re: 5k vs 5k how to handle influence fuseki
Post #2 Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:49 am 
Honinbo

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Fllecha wrote:
Hi all,

I play sometimes with this player and he always plays for influence with the triangle opening. I struggle really hard but I always finish fuseki with a position that I don't like at all: he always gets a magnificent influence, even if I infiltrate he stops my stones easily and I loses almost every time with 10 points or so, even if he make overplays like in the top right of this game.

Needless to say that if I ever try to play like him, trying to emphatize influence and center control I will end up 20-30 point BEHIND with my opponent getting 3 corners and long sides while I'm left only with few points in the center and that's pretty frustrating (for me of course). And if I even dare to play moyo game my opponents settle inside with easy reduction or sabaki and same outcome like before. Clearly when I play against moyo game I play inside, my opponent lets me live small and I'm left with few points in the corner and my opponent dominates the center and for each influence stone he gets a million points lol.

1) Can you please give me some advice (mainly on game direction) in the opening to counter his strategy?
2) Any help on my mistake is pretty much appreciated.


As we now know, his "triangle" opening is inferior. However, it is not all that inferior. ;) As for question 1), there are two kinds of answers. One is what is correct play, and one is practical play. Correct play is in a sense easy. Ignore the tengen stone at first. For instance, go ahead and invade on one of the 3-3 points. Or make an enclosure in the top right corner in the game. Yes, you will face the question of how to deal with his influence later on, but you can regard that as a learning opportunity. :) Practical play is also easy. Play on the side star point in the triangle. That play is also theoretically inferior, probably returning the game to even. But that play will prevent a lot of moyos. :)

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 Post subject: Re: 5k vs 5k how to handle influence fuseki
Post #3 Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:56 am 
Judan

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What were you thinking when you played 16? Black is offering you an opportunity to play normal moves and establish a stable group on the left side, his biggest potential area. But then you go an ignore his attachment and play some wacky tenuki on the other side of the corner. Did you suddenly become jealous of black's top side? You can't be jealous of both the left side and top side at the same time. First make a strong group on the left, the bigger area. Later you can deal with the top side. It's not even like black can turn it into territory with 1 or even 2 more moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Normal is good, step by step
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . 3 X . . . . . , . X . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: 5k vs 5k how to handle influence fuseki
Post #4 Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:21 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Practical play is also easy. Play on the side star point in the triangle. That play is also theoretically inferior, probably returning the game to even. But that play will prevent a lot of moyos. :)


I'm not sure if I've understood it properly since I'm not English mothertongue: What is the "side star point" here? Can you give me some coordinates?

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: 5k vs 5k how to handle influence fuseki
Post #5 Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:15 am 
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He meant D10.


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 Post subject: Re: 5k vs 5k how to handle influence fuseki
Post #6 Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:08 am 
Judan

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c10 is probably easier to play than d10 as it seeks to make a base on the side. If they then play natural checking extension at c12 you can either make simple 2-space extension to c7, but I don't like letting black play c5 because then the group is still under pressure and it's kinda honte to play one-space jump to e10 or e6 to make it happy but also too slow and obedient for my tastes, or you can approach at c6 and if they invade at c8 you jump out at e6 and they ought to defend the corner so then you can cover the c8 stone at d9, but maybe they will be aggressive and jump out with c8 so you need to be prepared for that fighting (you don't need to save c10 and just take profit against corner for now).


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 Post subject: Re: 5k vs 5k how to handle influence fuseki
Post #7 Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:24 am 
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This move immediately looked wrong to me:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm64
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . X X . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . , . X . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . X . . . . . , W W . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . B B . |
$$ | . O . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . X . 1 . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . O . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X O . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black is not in danger, in general you want to play at the vital point when your opponent is surrounded or almost. Here, Black has plenty of space in the center to escape or to make a second eye, and wants to hane at the head of your two stones.


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 Post subject: Re: 5k vs 5k how to handle influence fuseki
Post #8 Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:58 am 
Gosei

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You are asking the wrong question (Nr.1)

You managed to play quite well against his opening up to move 155. (Some smaller local mistakes were not exploited by your opponent.) First significant mistake is move 156. E11 should be at M18. You loose about 10 points with this ineffective gote move.

This is not about changing your strategy or direction of play, you did well in this regard, look for tactical mistakes instead.


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