This is a beginners tsumego easy life from tsumego hero (66/200):
This solution is considered correct:
I can't see why.
Could not white always prevent black from forming 2 eyes by taking the point between the eyes however black captures,
and if black does not capture there will be seki?
I'm sure I'm overlooking the solution (how this would be played out), but I've spent so much time on this, trying all moves I can see, it's driving me nuts.
Please tell me why/how this is supposed to work, thanks!
Why is this tsumego solution correct?
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Bill Spight
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Re: Why is this tsumego solution correct?
The solution diagram may show White making seki, but normally White will have a bigger play somewhere else. 
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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bayu
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Re: Why is this tsumego solution correct?
There is sometimes a tacit cascade:
1) Find a solution to live with points
2) Find a solution to live with seki
3) Find a solution to live with ko where you take the ko first
4) Find a solution to live with ko where the opponent takes the ko first
If there is no solutions for 1) you have to find one for 2) and so on. Sometimes it will be stated like: black to live in ko. But sometimes it is not and you have to figure it out by yourself. The cascade doesn't end there. In theory, there are also multistep kos and probably some other special cases, but they are rather rare.
Of course there is also the reverse:
1) Find a solution that kills
2) Find a solution that kills with a ko that you take first
3) Find a solution that kills with a ko that your opponent takes first
Creating a seki is usually considered a loss for the attacker.
In the tsumego you posted, the book solution is best. All other moves will result in black's death. Or did you find a black move that lives with points?
1) Find a solution to live with points
2) Find a solution to live with seki
3) Find a solution to live with ko where you take the ko first
4) Find a solution to live with ko where the opponent takes the ko first
If there is no solutions for 1) you have to find one for 2) and so on. Sometimes it will be stated like: black to live in ko. But sometimes it is not and you have to figure it out by yourself. The cascade doesn't end there. In theory, there are also multistep kos and probably some other special cases, but they are rather rare.
Of course there is also the reverse:
1) Find a solution that kills
2) Find a solution that kills with a ko that you take first
3) Find a solution that kills with a ko that your opponent takes first
Creating a seki is usually considered a loss for the attacker.
In the tsumego you posted, the book solution is best. All other moves will result in black's death. Or did you find a black move that lives with points?
If something sank it might be a treasure. And 2kyu advice is not necessarily Dan repertoire..
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Kirby
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Re: Why is this tsumego solution correct?
Seki is typically more valuable for the attacking player near the end of the game. That’s because, by getting seki, the attacking player prevents the living player from getting whatever points that eyespace would have been getting: usually less than 10 points. Moves early on are worth a lot more than that.
In contrast, killing a group without seki can sometimes be pretty profitable early on - the attacker will often get more than 20 points.
So for most of the game, seki is profitable for the defender, because they avoided death.
In contrast, killing a group without seki can sometimes be pretty profitable early on - the attacker will often get more than 20 points.
So for most of the game, seki is profitable for the defender, because they avoided death.
be immersed
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Knotwilg
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Re: Why is this tsumego solution correct?
Black 
lives. What remains is an endgame play at A with value 3. Black can make 6 points with 1 move, White can neutralize it with 1 move, making seki.
Any other move by Black will fail. For example, this will be met with the throw-in of 
lives. What remains is an endgame play at A with value 3. Black can make 6 points with 1 move, White can neutralize it with 1 move, making seki.Any other move by Black will fail. For example, this
will be met with the throw-in of -
EdLee
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or 
) = B dead.-
Jika
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Re: Why is this tsumego solution correct?
Thank you for all your answers.
I think Ed gets closest to my question: I see black can only kill himself there. But how can black make two eyes (can he)?
On Tsumego Hero, this is from the most, most, first, easiest beginners easy life collection. Make two eyes, live.
For all the other "easy life" tsumego but this one so far I was able to figure out (not always read, but play out) where the living group would have 2 eyes.
Your answers look as if I have not overlooked a simple "there are your two eyes, dumb!" solution?
I think Ed gets closest to my question: I see black can only kill himself there. But how can black make two eyes (can he)?
On Tsumego Hero, this is from the most, most, first, easiest beginners easy life collection. Make two eyes, live.
For all the other "easy life" tsumego but this one so far I was able to figure out (not always read, but play out) where the living group would have 2 eyes.
Your answers look as if I have not overlooked a simple "there are your two eyes, dumb!" solution?
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jlt
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Re: Why is this tsumego solution correct?
As explained by several people, if the two players play alternatively then Black cannot make two eyes, but can live in seki: after this position
no player can move in the area: if Black plays a or b then Black dies. If White plays at a then Black captures with b and can make two eyes. If White plays at b then Black captures with a and can make two eyes.
no player can move in the area: if Black plays a or b then Black dies. If White plays at a then Black captures with b and can make two eyes. If White plays at b then Black captures with a and can make two eyes.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Why is this tsumego solution correct?
And the next lesson is, make seki and live.Jika wrote:On Tsumego Hero, this is from the most, most, first, easiest beginners easy life collection. Make two eyes, live.
Looking at this question and others you have asked here, I think you would benefit from playing the Capture Game, where the first player to capture one or more stones wins.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Mike Novack
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Re: Why is this tsumego solution correct?
We could add a fifth (place after 2) --- live in double kobayu wrote:There is sometimes a tacit cascade:
1) Find a solution to live with points
2) Find a solution to live with seki
3) Find a solution to live with ko where you take the ko first
4) Find a solution to live with ko where the opponent takes the ko first
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EdLee
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Hi Jika, by taking 
, and B cannot make 2 eyes here.
As others have pointed out, the solution here is not to make 2 eyes, but to make seki. Just because all the other problems in your 'beginners' section so far have 2 eyes as the solution, it doesn't mean all the problems in the this section require you to "live with 2 eyes"; rather, they're teaching you to find 'the best' local solution, which, as mentioned, can mean seki, ko, etc.
B cannot make 2 eyes here unless W helps B: However, W can resistBut how can black make two eyes (can he)?
... Make two eyes, live.
... where the living group would have 2 eyes.
by taking , and B cannot make 2 eyes here.As others have pointed out, the solution here is not to make 2 eyes, but to make seki. Just because all the other problems in your 'beginners' section so far have 2 eyes as the solution, it doesn't mean all the problems in the this section require you to "live with 2 eyes"; rather, they're teaching you to find 'the best' local solution, which, as mentioned, can mean seki, ko, etc.
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Jika
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Re: Why is this tsumego solution correct?
OK, I see.
So, either this tsumego is more advanced than the ones before and after it, so I misunderstood what it wanted me to do
(I came back to it several times before posting here, because I was able to pass those after that one by making two eyes)
or it may be consider "wrong" (in the sense that it "should not be so advanced in this collection" / "should not be in the midst of a collection of 'make 2 eyes' tsumego")
or just showing that, as there are multiple contributors to a collection, what one player calls "easy" is not "easy" beginners level for others.
Bill, I have Hactar Go light (plays the capture game) for Android.
I used to do well on it, but it has been a while since I used it.
When you say it may treat the root of the problem, I'll use it again for sure.
Thanks, Jika
So, either this tsumego is more advanced than the ones before and after it, so I misunderstood what it wanted me to do
(I came back to it several times before posting here, because I was able to pass those after that one by making two eyes)
or it may be consider "wrong" (in the sense that it "should not be so advanced in this collection" / "should not be in the midst of a collection of 'make 2 eyes' tsumego")
or just showing that, as there are multiple contributors to a collection, what one player calls "easy" is not "easy" beginners level for others.
Bill, I have Hactar Go light (plays the capture game) for Android.
I used to do well on it, but it has been a while since I used it.
When you say it may treat the root of the problem, I'll use it again for sure.
Thanks, Jika
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Bill Spight
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Re: Why is this tsumego solution correct?
Well, yes, it is not easy to assign a level of difficulty to problems, and different people find different things difficult.Jika wrote:OK, I see.
So, either this tsumego is more advanced than the ones before and after it, so I misunderstood what it wanted me to do
(I came back to it several times before posting here, because I was able to pass those after that one by making two eyes)
or it may be consider "wrong" (in the sense that it "should not be so advanced in this collection" / "should not be in the midst of a collection of 'make 2 eyes' tsumego")
or just showing that, as there are multiple contributors to a collection, what one player calls "easy" is not "easy" beginners level for others.
As for seki, a lot of people are unaware that it is a solution to a problem with the goal of making life. I suppose, then, that such problems are underrepresented among easy problems.
Do you play it on the 9x9? How well does it play? Can you beat it if you take White?Bill, I have Hactar Go light (plays the capture game) for Android.
I used to do well on it, but it has been a while since I used it.
When you say it may treat the root of the problem, I'll use it again for sure.
Good luck!
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Jika
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Re: Why is this tsumego solution correct?
Bill, just so I know we are talking about the same thing:
Do you mean the Capture Go game "whoever captures the other one first wins" (so, maybe b and w start with one stone each shoulder by shoulder and try capturing each other's stone before being captured themselves - so the board size does not matter that much as long as you have few stones in the beginning)?
(SL links to the Hactar App under this name of Capture Go - among other names - https://senseis.xmp.net/?AtariGo
, so I thought you must mean that one)
Or are we talking about this,
https://www.crazy-sensei.com/location=rules
(scroll down)
which, I think, you recommended to me and which would be great to train life and death too?
... Uhm, I think I remember we had this same discussion on the term "Capture Go" the last time and you are referring to the second one??? (Had loads of fun with that one, but on the 9x9 board it is only a 50:50 chance for me at the program's half strength and me playing black!!!)
Do you mean the Capture Go game "whoever captures the other one first wins" (so, maybe b and w start with one stone each shoulder by shoulder and try capturing each other's stone before being captured themselves - so the board size does not matter that much as long as you have few stones in the beginning)?
(SL links to the Hactar App under this name of Capture Go - among other names - https://senseis.xmp.net/?AtariGo
, so I thought you must mean that one)
Or are we talking about this,
https://www.crazy-sensei.com/location=rules
(scroll down)
which, I think, you recommended to me and which would be great to train life and death too?
... Uhm, I think I remember we had this same discussion on the term "Capture Go" the last time and you are referring to the second one??? (Had loads of fun with that one, but on the 9x9 board it is only a 50:50 chance for me at the program's half strength and me playing black!!!)