The Orient and Other PC Discussion

[cdybeijing]

I cringe every time I read or hear a reference to "the Orient."

[Javaness]

I don't want to elaborate much on what little rumour I have heard. However I believe it will operate as a 12 player league, with the bottom 6 having to fight challengers for their place next year. Those who have signed up presumably support the league, obviously (from my understanding) they cannot all be playing in it. Anyway, I expect full and accurate details will emerge soon enough.

The use of the word Orient doesn't seem particularly cringeworthy to me, at least no more so than the terms European, American or Western. Is it now considered pejorative for some strange reason?

[Horibe]

The use of the word Orient doesn't seem particularly cringeworthy to me, at least no more so than the terms European, American or Western. Is it now considered pejorative for some strange reason?

The use of the term is considered pretty politically incorrect in the U.S. Since it defines a people based on where they live, "orient" meaning, I think, from the east, it is hard to deny that it is somewhat Eurocentric.

[John Fairbairn]

I cringe every time I read or hear a reference to "the Orient."

Since the poster of this message made me cringe by declining to explain the statement, I can't know exactly why he cringes. However, not very long ago a person from a family of Chinese origin living in the USA wrote to me about my frequent use of "Oriental" and said he, like some other people in the USA, found it pejorative. He was not really complaining but rather was puzzled because my usage of the term was clearly not meant to be pejorative!

I think it would therefore be useful, mostly for Americans, if I point out that, for historical and cultural reasons, we in Britain, and I think to a large degree other countries in Europe, have in our consciousness the many people of India and Pakistan who live here. They tend to prefer being classed as (British) Asians, and this usage is enshrined in many official government usages. We therefore often use Oriental for people from China, Japan and Korea. There is not, and as far as I know never has been, any suggestion of this being pejorative. People of this origin in Britain also use the term about themselves. A large supermarket near us in London run by Japanese and selling food from Japan, China, Korea, Thailand and Malaysia (but not from India or Pakistan) called itself, in huge neon letters The Oriental Centre. And I might add that within Japan they sometimes use the English word Oriental about themselves.

We do not exclude such people from Asia, of course, but when we refer to the CKJ countries in that way we often tend to say South-East Asia, although whether China is then included is often a matter of debate.

Such definitions are always fluid - I can well remember as a child finding it hard to get my head round some people calling the Middle East Asia (not wrong but it did confuse me) - and some people will have a slightly different take on the nuances. But I can say with certainty that "Oriental" or "the Orient" when it comes from this side of the Pond has nothing bad about it.

[topazg]

The use of the term is considered pretty politically incorrect in the U.S. Since it defines a people based on where they live, "orient" meaning, I think, from the east, it is hard to deny that it is somewhat Eurocentric.

Presumably American is politically incorrect for the same reasons? Or, if Oriental is bad because it includes more than one country, presumably European is politically incorrect in the US also? I don't buy that "Oriental" is at all Eurocentric, any more than "European" is "Oriental-centric" - I can't see the rationality for it.

EDIT: I agree with John completely - my guess is that a term starts becoming politically incorrect when it starts being widely used in a pejorative manner. In the UK, I know people from Pakistan and Bangladesh who are very happy being called Pakistani and Bangladeshi, but the former would be unhappy to be called "Paki" - even though it is simply an abbreviation. I would consider the reason fairly self-explanatory as it is almost entirely used with negative connotations, however, there is no actual logical difference between the two if used in the same context.

[John Fairbairn]

The use of the term is considered pretty politically incorrect in the U.S. Since it defines a people based on where they live, "orient" meaning, I think, from the east, it is hard to deny that it is somewhat Eurocentric.

Of course the Americans are entitled to their view, but when we write in Europe we are at our centre, and the usual way to Japan etc from here is eastwards.

Americans can often forget they live in a bigger world. Questions such as "Hey guys have you seen the latest journal?" on this forum when they mean American Go Journal can curdle the milk in your coffee if you get up in Europe on the wrong side of the bed or have a bad hair day.

[hyperpape]

I have never seen a clear explanation of why "oriental" was considered offensive--a serious attempt to understand then when/why/who of it would be interesting.

I had, in the back of my head, always associated it with Edward Said's critique of Orientalism. If the term came to be viewed as offensive during the heyday of political correctness, that would make sense, since the folks behind PC were typically the sorts who'd know and care about Said.

[Bantari]

Bantari, I said "school" - not "club".

Well, then I said 'event', not 'school'. So why bring up 'school'. Are we to quibble over words rather than ideas?
Originally you were talking about events, right? Teachers invited and financed by event organizers, like EGC? Events, right?

Schools are different things altogether, and its like comparing apples to oranges. Schools imply permanent employment, on-going courses, and need for teachers of many levels. Its up to the schools to sort out what teachers they need and what standards they set. I see absolutely no relevance here.

My point was that, club or event (and possibly school as well), there are good reasons which make it much more lucrative to invite and finance strong players rather than week players. Thus it is more efficient to spend the limited resources this way. And it is pretty obvious.

[Bantari]

The use of the term is considered pretty politically incorrect in the U.S. Since it defines a people based on where they live, "orient" meaning, I think, from the east, it is hard to deny that it is somewhat Eurocentric.

Of course the Americans are entitled to their view, but when we write in Europe we are at our centre, and the usual way to Japan etc from here is eastwards.

Americans can often forget they live in a bigger world. Questions such as "Hey guys have you seen the latest journal?" on this forum when they mean American Go Journal can curdle the milk in your coffee if you get up in Europe on the wrong side of the bed or have a bad hair day.

The issue is not words, but people who use them and ideas they have. If people start using good words in a bad way, its the people and the ideas which are bad, not the words. But people are lazy try to take the easy way to simply 'forbid' the words, fooling themselves into thinking that this will solve the problem. But then new words come, and since the ideas are still there, the new words will soon become 'bad'. And so on...

So what are we supposed to do, change our vocabulary every few years?!?
This is preposterous, like the whole idiotic idea of 'political correctness.'

Its the underlying ideas which need to be dealt with, not the words.

THAT should be curdling your coffee, not the fact that somebody forgot to specify which 'go journal' they refer to. Or which 'go server', or which 'rank level' or whatever... Because Europeans and Australians and Asians and Africans are as guilty of all the above as are the Americans. I even heard an Eskimo referring to himself and his tribe as 'the people'.

[Peter Hansmeier]

To Americans, oriental sounds old-fashioned and possibly offensive, perhaps a shade more neutral than negro. No American politician who fears reelection would ever use either word, especially in Washington (a state with a large Asian population) where use of the word was banned. We use East Asia and East Asian in place of the Orient and oriental. Some groups, such as the CFR (American think tank and publisher of Foreign Affairs), split Japan and Korea off into "Northeast Asia."

Of course, it really depends on who is using the word, and in what context. If Kong Jie called himself, Lee Sedol, or Iyama Yuta an oriental, no one would care. If we hear a culturally sensitive British person use it to describe the major Go-playing countries, no one is offended. But when I hear Americans use oriental, words such as Pei-king, rickshaw, or Siam usually follow. The term calls to mind colonization of Asia; or at best a romantic, mystical place where people have strange customs and speak in incomprehensible languages. It is as though they and their understanding of Asia were transported out of 1930. That being said, oriental is acceptable when followed by rug, chicken salad or other inanimate objects. In my experience, improper use of the word is usually out of ignorance rather than animus. When Americans want to be offensive, we use words that pack more of an emotional charge.

Each country has their own take on the term, but in the United States it is mildly offensive.

[Mcgreag]

We do not exclude such people from Asia, of course, but when we refer to the CKJ countries in that way we often tend to say South-East Asia, although whether China is then included is often a matter of debate.

From my understanding none of the CJK countires are included in what is generally refereed to as Southeast Asia. That description is generally used when talking about Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Indonesia etc.
Wikipedia also seems to agree with me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Asia

[Javaness]

To Americans, oriental sounds old-fashioned and possibly offensive, perhaps a shade more neutral than negro. No American politician who fears reelection would ever use either word, especially in Washington (a state with a large Asian population) where use of the word was banned. We use East Asia and East Asian in place of the Orient and oriental. Some groups, such as the CFR (American think tank and publisher of Foreign Affairs), split Japan and Korea off into "Northeast Asia."

That's interesting and useful to know. I simply don't associate anything derogatory with the word Oriental, but if I used this in the USA looks like I would end up as a social reject.

[hyperpape]

preposterous...Its the underlying ideas which need to be dealt with, not the words.

Indeed. Whenever I'm speaking with someone I know is a bit prejudiced, I like to correct them and make sure they're using any of the relevant slurs. It really is better to keep everything in the open.

[hyperpape]

No American politician who fears reelection would ever use either word, especially in Washington (a state with a large Asian population) where use of the word was banned.

That's potentially misleading, because it was banned in official government documents.

That's interesting and useful to know. I simply don't associate anything derogatory with the word Oriental, but if I used this in the USA looks like I would end up as a social reject.

This is not at all my sense. I was taught it was not the proper term when I was quite young, but I suspect the average person wouldn't perceive it as at all offensive, and that many people just find it to be mildly incorrect, or old fashioned.

[John Fairbairn]

It's useful also to bear in mind that attempted imposition of American PC is offensive to many Europeans.

But one of the benefits of my recent trips to the USA was learning just how much ordinary Americans reject PC when they don't have to publicly watch what they say. I don't mean they are redneck. I mean they are sensible.

There are thousands of examples that exasperate ordinary people here. One that took the biscuit for me was a UK civil service training course (UK trainers tend to follow American practice slavishly) that I was told about. The attendees were told to stop signing off e-mails with "Please do not hesitate to contact me if I can help further" otherwise they would risk implying that the recipient was often hesitant and therefore incompetent. Apart from anything else, I can think of many jobs where hesitation is a good thing - it's called look before you leap.

To bring it back to go, one of the PC elements that irritate me is using "he" and "she" for Black and White.