One virtue of that plan is that it makesShaddy wrote:Consider your moves from 68 to 80. Which of them has made points, and how many? My plan would have been to close Black in on top and extend down the left, fwiw.
a good play. 
SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
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Bill Spight
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Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
a good play. The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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SoDesuNe
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Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Thank you both!
Enclose is nice idea, right. I'll try it next time : ) My initial thought was approaching the bottom right, too ^^
Hane! Of course... Too much new found knowledge. Needs a bit to incorporate, I guess.
I actually thought about the kick here but I felt the left is more valuable and did not want to give Black a head start. Hm, abandon the corner for the moment and work the aji later... I also like that. I guess I'll take the shimari next time : )
Attach underneath, hm, I wonder what I had thought about this in the game or if I even thought about it... I like it now ^^
Yes, atari seems stronger. A is my usual inclination of backing down once because my opponent will surely self-destruct later on (aka 50%-moves ^^)
Hm, tough. I knew my move is slow but I think it was my initial conception that I had to cut Black apart that lead me to going all out here. E15 looks like better shape, yes. But maybe C11 would be more enterprising, seeing that the left is the largest open area?
Interesting, I'd thought this is my only move since H16 just gives away everything I mapped out for some very unclear center facing structure. Of course, as Bill points out, I can justify B16 with this. Still, if Black lives at the top worry-free, he has no weak groups on the board and can go all-out in reducing. Just in my head this seems like a hit-or-miss-strategy : D
Of course this means mistakes were made earlier and regarding the top, I feel F16 ( ) is partly to blame.
Yeah, I have no feeling for when to peep and when I shouldn't... So I guess the one-point-jump is okay?
I thought about the shoulder-play. Just didn't know what to do after that. It was not clear to me how I can attack the Black center group, let alone for profit. But maybe good things happen when you get some strength? ^^
I disliked the stand because I thought Black will play tiger-mouth (B11) in response. Of course I can easily cover at D10 then but my area on the top left will be hurt.
Okay, there is more to the position than that. Black also loses a bit when he does not connect up "properly"... complicated. Mistakes were made before : D
Enclose is nice idea, right. I'll try it next time : ) My initial thought was approaching the bottom right, too ^^ Hane! Of course... Too much new found knowledge. Needs a bit to incorporate, I guess. I actually thought about the kick here but I felt the left is more valuable and did not want to give Black a head start. Hm, abandon the corner for the moment and work the aji later... I also like that. I guess I'll take the shimari next time : ) Attach underneath, hm, I wonder what I had thought about this in the game or if I even thought about it... I like it now ^^ Yes, atari seems stronger. A is my usual inclination of backing down once because my opponent will surely self-destruct later on (aka 50%-moves ^^) Hm, tough. I knew my move is slow but I think it was my initial conception that I had to cut Black apart that lead me to going all out here. E15 looks like better shape, yes. But maybe C11 would be more enterprising, seeing that the left is the largest open area? Interesting, I'd thought this is my only move since H16 just gives away everything I mapped out for some very unclear center facing structure. Of course, as Bill points out, I can justify B16 with this. Still, if Black lives at the top worry-free, he has no weak groups on the board and can go all-out in reducing. Just in my head this seems like a hit-or-miss-strategy : DOf course this means mistakes were made earlier and regarding the top, I feel F16 (
) is partly to blame. Yeah, I have no feeling for when to peep and when I shouldn't... So I guess the one-point-jump is okay? I thought about the shoulder-play. Just didn't know what to do after that. It was not clear to me how I can attack the Black center group, let alone for profit. But maybe good things happen when you get some strength? ^^ I disliked the stand because I thought Black will play tiger-mouth (B11) in response. Of course I can easily cover at D10 then but my area on the top left will be hurt.Okay, there is more to the position than that. Black also loses a bit when he does not connect up "properly"... complicated. Mistakes were made before : D
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Bill Spight
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Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Some years ago John Fairbairn and I had a brief discussion on L19 aboutSoDesuNe wrote:Thank you both!
as a second approach against sanrensei. IIRC, it was about nirensei by White vs. sanrensei by Black. It is very likely playable here, too, OC. But with two possible enclosures for White, making one may trump a second approach. The reason is that they are not exactly miai. If White encloses one first and then Black approaches the other, White can reply to the approach. But if Black approaches first and then White encloses the other, Black can play against the lone White stone in the first corner. The underneath attachment is a bit inconsistent with White's previous extension on the top side. However, the bots don't seem to care much about such things, at least until later in the opening. They like staking out the corner, the 3-3 invasion, the underneath attachment, and the kick.
I think that Shaddy's plan against the Black top side invasion is a good one. The left side is now big, and Black's prospects on the top side are more limited, especially after White has strengthened himself in the top right. And for White to stake out the left side at our around C-11 seems like a good idea, too.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Shaddy
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Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
You haven't mapped out very much at the top. As an exercise, you should sketch out the invasion you imagine and count the points you lose compared to what you get in the game. i would be surprised if it turned out to be larger than a moderately-sized endgame move.SoDesuNe wrote:Thank you both!
Of course this means mistakes were made earlier and regarding the top, I feel F16 (
also, you have a sente descent against the corner, so i'm not even sure Black has an easy life here.
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SoDesuNe
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Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Here I wasn't satisfied with the result I read first and got the best answer:
Here I was satisfied too soon : (
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SoDesuNe
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Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
This happens most of the time when I try to play a framework game : (
PS: The good times have past: I'm now back to retracing my old bad habits. Had an unusual game right after and instead of playing just calmly, taking big points, I invaded the first small area I found ^^ Then I tenukid twice from that group (not really getting profit from it) letting it get totally surrounded and probably (maybe) alive with two points. My opponent also played unreasonable but due to surrounding my invading group he had a nice framework. And we know how this will go for me... I had chances to fight in this game but instead of taking them, I just threatend them, so my opponent could defend timely (I got one invading stones of his, which later connected up, seperated and killed me in his framework).
T'was nice while it lasted ^^
PS: The good times have past: I'm now back to retracing my old bad habits. Had an unusual game right after and instead of playing just calmly, taking big points, I invaded the first small area I found ^^ Then I tenukid twice from that group (not really getting profit from it) letting it get totally surrounded and probably (maybe) alive with two points. My opponent also played unreasonable but due to surrounding my invading group he had a nice framework. And we know how this will go for me... I had chances to fight in this game but instead of taking them, I just threatend them, so my opponent could defend timely (I got one invading stones of his, which later connected up, seperated and killed me in his framework).
T'was nice while it lasted ^^
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SoDesuNe
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Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
I actually went back and analysed my last three games with Leela Zero. Didn't get KataGo to work with Leela.
My framework game was easily won for White - according to LZ of course. But I now also made a count and it seems White was really ahead with Komi and something, I just had to defend my cutting points...
I was looking for abstract ideas to get a grip on how to play better in certain situations. So more understanding, less specific moves.
After I went through the following three commented games, I could take away the following (basic stuff actually...):
Opening:
1) Don't invade/reduce too early. Especially when there are open corners.
2) Think about which sides are big.
3) Approach from the side that works well with your own stones.
4) Before simply defending light stones (farther apart) with no threat of a follow-up: Tenuki - especially in the opening.
Middlegame:
1) Don't get attached to an area, where you have multiple stones but with large(r) gabs inbetween.
2) If no plan can be found to attack a group for profit - don't attack, just take points/big moves. (Don't make territory from a wall)
3) If you defend, two things to consider: Playing a light shape (which means large(r) moves and readily abandoning unimportant stones) and attaching.
4) Think about the threat your move poses and if that makes it sente.
5) Keep in mind important stones and areas and don't react to endgame-stuff in the middlegame.
6) In the middlegame the objective is to have healthy groups with potential, ie don't run into an attack by just playing big moves.
7) Mind cuts and try to defend them in sente!
8) Count!
So, now let's make a printout : )
My framework game was easily won for White - according to LZ of course. But I now also made a count and it seems White was really ahead with Komi and something, I just had to defend my cutting points...
I was looking for abstract ideas to get a grip on how to play better in certain situations. So more understanding, less specific moves.
After I went through the following three commented games, I could take away the following (basic stuff actually...):
Opening:
1) Don't invade/reduce too early. Especially when there are open corners.
2) Think about which sides are big.
3) Approach from the side that works well with your own stones.
4) Before simply defending light stones (farther apart) with no threat of a follow-up: Tenuki - especially in the opening.
Middlegame:
1) Don't get attached to an area, where you have multiple stones but with large(r) gabs inbetween.
2) If no plan can be found to attack a group for profit - don't attack, just take points/big moves. (Don't make territory from a wall)
3) If you defend, two things to consider: Playing a light shape (which means large(r) moves and readily abandoning unimportant stones) and attaching.
4) Think about the threat your move poses and if that makes it sente.
5) Keep in mind important stones and areas and don't react to endgame-stuff in the middlegame.
6) In the middlegame the objective is to have healthy groups with potential, ie don't run into an attack by just playing big moves.
7) Mind cuts and try to defend them in sente!
8) Count!
So, now let's make a printout : )
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SoDesuNe
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Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Another very good best move problem (even has a comment of Bill Spight on goproblems.com ; )):
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SoDesuNe
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Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
First game trying to follow the above mentioned pricinples. I already failed in making stable groups ^^
Though the highlights of the game were due to my missing fighting spirit, with which I explain why I didn't dive more deeply into attacking lines.
I'm pondering whether to make whole-board-problems from my own games and solve them via UliGo. But it's hard to really pinpoint the direction I want to go with this: Just best global move? Focussing on direction of play problems?
Needs some further thought.
Aside from my daily 20 goproblems.com-problems I had a "quick" run through Cho Hun-hyeon's Lectures on Go Techniques Volume 2 and 3, and Get Strong at Invading. A lot of fascinating stuff and a lot of middlegame patterns I don't really have internalised.
I'm now back to Get Strong at Attacking (self-declared weakest point of my game), with pen and paper to write down the problems I got wrong and start overlearning!
And I should play more... Hopefully tomorrow!
Though the highlights of the game were due to my missing fighting spirit, with which I explain why I didn't dive more deeply into attacking lines.
I'm pondering whether to make whole-board-problems from my own games and solve them via UliGo. But it's hard to really pinpoint the direction I want to go with this: Just best global move? Focussing on direction of play problems?
Needs some further thought.
Aside from my daily 20 goproblems.com-problems I had a "quick" run through Cho Hun-hyeon's Lectures on Go Techniques Volume 2 and 3, and Get Strong at Invading. A lot of fascinating stuff and a lot of middlegame patterns I don't really have internalised.
I'm now back to Get Strong at Attacking (self-declared weakest point of my game), with pen and paper to write down the problems I got wrong and start overlearning!
And I should play more... Hopefully tomorrow!
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SoDesuNe
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Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Here I again failed the second time... and it's not that hard.
This one on the other hand is one of those: First time solved (understood), easy to sport the vital point again.
This one on the other hand is one of those: First time solved (understood), easy to sport the vital point again.
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FinrodFelagund
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Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
This I guess is the main line. Make an eye and connect at the same time, with no ko possible.
And from here, after white captures
, black plays H1 and catches white in a shortage of liberties. Cool problems.
And from here, after white captures
, black plays H1 and catches white in a shortage of liberties. Cool problems.Now men awoke and listened to Felagund as he harped and sang, and each thought that he was in some fair dream, until he saw that his fellows were awake also beside him; but they did not speak or stir while Felagund still played
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Kirby
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FinrodFelagund
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Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
The plan is to cry. I definitely should have considered that response. New plan!Kirby wrote:
What's your plan if white plays here?
Now the whole corner only has 1 eye. White should take the stone to save the corner, but will lose an extra two points if white wants to save everything.
White can only take at C1 , then black wins the capturing race with H1.
White would live in sente if
was played at 
, letting black connect.I think I still suffer from a huge case of wishful reading. I need to develop the discipline to go back and consider white's best response with the same intensity that I considered black's first move.
Now men awoke and listened to Felagund as he harped and sang, and each thought that he was in some fair dream, until he saw that his fellows were awake also beside him; but they did not speak or stir while Felagund still played
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Bill Spight
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Re: SoDesuNe paves his road to Shodan
Putting yourself in your opponent's place is indeed important in a game. In fact, IMHO, you should do that before you think about your play. If it were your opponent's turn, where would they play? The saying is, The opponent's key point is my key point. How do you know the opponent's key point if you don't look at the board through their eyes?FinrodFelagund wrote:New plan!
Now the whole corner only has 1 eye. White should take the stone to save the corner, but will lose an extra two points if white wants to save everything.
White can only take at C1 , then black wins the capturing race with H1.
White would live in sente if
I think I still suffer from a huge case of wishful reading. I need to develop the discipline to go back and consider white's best response with the same intensity that I considered black's first move.
But to solve a problem doing that is neither necessary nor sufficient.
It's not necessary because you only need to find one move for yourself when it's your turn, regardless of where your opponent might play, and it's not sufficient because when it's your opponent's turn, you need to have a good reply to each of their moves. It's not a question of psychology, but of technique.For instance,
You have shown replies for a and b, but what about c - f?
Maybe some of these plays are trivially obvious. But to me b and f stand out because they are where Black played in response to a. c is a point where Black played in response to b. And after e Black can still make a mistake.
I don't mean that you need to read every possibly reply by your opponent at every turn, but you certainly need to be prepared for every one of them.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.