56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

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Violence
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Violence »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=6, B=10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . O . . O O X X X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . X O . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . X . . . . . W . O O X |
$$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . X . |
$$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . O . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X O X X X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I think sente is too important in this game... I have to keep sente, and this is the move to let me do it. If I were to connect and atari one stone, I think that he would just take tenuki.
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Magicwand
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=6, B=10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . O . . O O X X X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . X O . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . 1 X . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . X . . . . . W 2 O O X |
$$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . X . |
$$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . O . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O 3 |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X O X X X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
after careful review 'a' is gote so it is not big.
i will rather take his sente away from him (this will demoralize him) and give some support to my group in the middle and make sure he doesnt have two eye so i can force him to take my stones at the end plus many other intresting ajis.
also 'b' is very big because it will open up invasion on 'c' plus many more intresting ajis.
i believe i am winning by slim margin but it is still too early to tell.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=6, B=10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . O X . . . . . . . O c . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . b X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . O . . O O X X X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . X O . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . 1 X . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . X . . . . . W 2 O O X |
$$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . X . |
$$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . O . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O 3 |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . a . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X O X X X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Chew Terr
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=6, B=10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . c X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . O . . O O X X X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . X O . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . b 1 X . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . X . . . . . W 2 O O X |
$$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . a X O O X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . X . |
$$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . O . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . x |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O 3 |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X O X X X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but 3 seems very gote, which is the opposite of what MW said? I don't see why white would play at x, now that there are only two points in gote there? a-c all seem bigger to me.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by amnal »

Chew Terr wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=6, B=10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . c X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . O . . O O X X X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . X O . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . b 1 X . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . X . . . . . W 2 O O X |
$$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . a X O O X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . X . |
$$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . O . . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . x |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O 3 |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . X O . X O X X X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but 3 seems very gote, which is the opposite of what MW said? I don't see why white would play at x, now that there are only two points in gote there? a-c all seem bigger to me.
I think it has some merit also in that it changes how white can handle a (as black can connect underneath now, so doesn't have to worry about this if white ataris to capture.

It's also reverse sente, of course, and removes some aji from the area.

Whether this is enough to make it the best move...I'm still not sure. It's subtle, if so.
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Harleqin
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Harleqin »

This is very kyuish mistake by Black, motivated by "sente envy". There would have been a much bigger reverse sente on the left side, for example.
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Violence »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=6, B=10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . O . . O O X X X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . X O . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . X . . . . . O O O O X |
$$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . X . |
$$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . O 3 . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . 1 |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X 2 |
$$ | . . X O . X O X X X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The most important thing here is to keep black separated. I can get more sente forcing moves if I can keep this center group weak.
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Magicwand
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=6, B=10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . O . . O O X X X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . X O . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . X . . . . . O O O O X |
$$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . B X O O X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . X . |
$$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . O O . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . O |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | . . X O . X O X X X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
i hate to lost my turn..but this move is necessary to protect my group from dying. also it is pretty big for points.
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The greater the unknown"
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Violence »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=6, B=10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . O . . O O X X X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . X O . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . X . . . . . O O O O X |
$$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . W X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . X . |
$$ | . X O . O X O O O . O . O . . . O O . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . O |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | . . X O . X O X X X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Now to reduce this group to barely anything in sente. It's huge.
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Magicwand
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=6, B=11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . O . . O O X X X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . X O . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . X . . . . . O O O O X |
$$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . X . |
$$ | . X . B O X O O O . O . O . . . O O . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . O |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | . . X O . X O X X X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
i was waiting for this. i am thinking it is his mistake to play this move. i will live with just two eye but it will leave bad aji and i can get back what i lost.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by calm »

Magicwand wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=6, B=11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . O . . O O X X X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . X O . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . X . . . . . O O O O X |
$$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . X . |
$$ | . X . B O X O O O . O . O . . . O O . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . O |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | . . X O . X O X X X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
i was waiting for this. i am thinking it is his mistake to play this move. i will live with just two eye but it will leave bad aji and i can get back what i lost.
@magicwand
What aji?
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Magicwand
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Magicwand »

calm wrote: @magicwand
What aji?
i can not tell you for sure now. but aji at 'a' is intresting.
i think i can save marked black stone for free. that is enough to take back what i have lost on left.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=6, B=11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . O . . O O X X X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O B b . . . . X O . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . X . . . . . O O O O X |
$$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . X X . a . X . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . X . |
$$ | 1 X 2 X O X O O O . O . O . . . O O . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . O |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | . . X O . X O X X X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Last edited by Magicwand on Fri Aug 13, 2010 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The greater the unknown"
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by lorill »

You forgot to hide your comment.
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Harleqin »

Wishful thinking, no?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . O . . O O X X X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O B b . . . . X O . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . X . . . . . O O O O X |
$$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . X X 3 a . X . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . X . |
$$ | 1 X 2 X O X O O O . O . O . . . O O . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . O |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | . . X O . X O X X X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by topazg »

Harleqin wrote:
Wishful thinking, no?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . O . . O O X X X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O B b . . . . X O . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . X . . . . . O O O O X |
$$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . X X 3 a . X . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . X . |
$$ | 1 X 2 X O X O O O . O . O . . . O O . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . O |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | . . X O . X O X X X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
That was my feeling too, it looks that way :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . O . . O O X X X O X O X O . |
$$ | 9 X O X . . . . . X O . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | 8 . X X O O . . X . . . . . O O O O X |
$$ | . 0 X . X O . X . X . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | 6 4 X X 3 . . X . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | 5 O X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . X . |
$$ | 1 X 2 X O X O O O . O . O . . . O O . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . O |
$$ | 7 O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | . . X O . X O X X X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Li Kao
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Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)

Post by Li Kao »

Harleqin wrote:Wishful thinking, no?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . X X . O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . O O X . . X . . X X O . |
$$ | O O O . . O . . O O X X X O X O X O . |
$$ | . X O B b . . . . X O . . . O O O O . |
$$ | . X X O O X X X O O . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . X . . . . . O O O O X |
$$ | . . X . X O . X . X . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . X X 3 a . X . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O X O O O . X X O . X X X . . . X . |
$$ | 1 X 2 X O X O O O . O . O . . . O O . |
$$ | O X X O O X O X X . O . O . O O . . O |
$$ | . O O . . X X O . X . X . . O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . X X X X |
$$ | . . X O . X O X X X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Is 3 sente or gote?
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