Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:27 pm

With apologies to Dave (ez4u), but as you shall see, I couldn't resist.

This pair of problems comes from a game between Takagawa and Fujisawa Hideyuki (GoGoD 1965-03-11a, 5.5 komi. Takagawa was White). I don't have to worry about whether the human play is textbook or not. These two guys, known as masters of the fuseki in their time, wrote the textbooks.

Problem 4.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc White to play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Lots of choices, but I think that the bots will probably agree on the same point or next to it. And that they won't like Takagawa's play, by comparison.

Problem 5 is hidden, for when you are ready.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black to play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Again, I expect the bots to agree on the same point or next to it, and not to like Fujisawa's play.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:38 pm

Discussion of Problem 4.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 One space extension. Joseki. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is joseki, OC. But what might haven given us pause before the AI era is the fact that the Black hanging connection does not have a strong follow-up against the solid White corner, so the extension is not necessary and may be inefficient. The bots have another idea.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 Enclosure. Elf's main line. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . 9 7 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 6 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 5 . . , 8 . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Elf's top choice is to enclose the bottom left corner. OK, that's plainly a good play. What is shocking, however, is that Elf regards the extension in the top left as 21% worse, i.e., a very bad play.

As the mainline variation shows, the top left is non-urgent.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:53 pm

Discussion of Problem 5.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Three space extension. Joseki. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The game continued as above. Note that

aims to make two enclosures or to get the mutually desired extension at

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 3-3 invasion. Elf's mainline. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . | $$ | . . . , 3 . . . . , . . . . . , 7 . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . 9 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Elf regards the bottom left corner as urgent and plays the 3-3 invasion. What follows is its mainline variation. Again, what is shocking is that it regards the 3-3 invasion as 20% better than

in the game.

lightvector · Post by **lightvector** » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:24 pm

KataGo recent stronger unreleased 40 blocks, lots of playouts, analysisWideRootNoise = 0.1 to force evaluation of lots of options. Winrates from black's perspective.

Problem 4

Problem 5

lightvector · Post by **lightvector** » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:30 pm

Also for problem 4...

We sat from the heatmap above, that KataGo actually thinks that the peep is another plausible move, and is basically the same winrate as sealing the corner in the bottom left. What is the followup to the peep?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . 3 . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . b c . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So interestingly, KataGo considers it fine to leave the lower left alone and respond on the top, but thinks white must play this way rather than playing the human joseki 1-point-jump. I'm not sure whether it usually prefers this particular pattern as the local followup for white given the upper left shape or if it's specific to this board. I think the idea at least in this case is that now black's left stones are a bit heavier and attackable, making it much harder for black to have time to take the lower left corner.

Locally, KataGo expects black 'a' next, but if black does rush to the lower left at 'b' or 'c' next, then white 'd'.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:36 pm

Corners before sides!

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:58 pm

lightvector wrote:Also for problem 4...

We sat from the heatmap above, that KataGo actually thinks that the peep is another plausible move, and is basically the same winrate as sealing the corner in the bottom left. What is the followup to the peep?

$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . 3 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . b c . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . 3 . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . b c . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So interestingly, KataGo considers it fine to leave the lower left alone and respond on the top, but thinks white must play this way rather than playing the human joseki 1-point-jump. I'm not sure whether it usually prefers this particular pattern as the local followup for white given the upper left shape or if it's specific to this board. I think the idea at least in this case is that now black's left stones are a bit heavier and attackable, making it much harder for black to have time to take the lower left corner.

Locally, KataGo expects black 'a' next, but if black does rush to the lower left at 'b' or 'c' next, then white 'd'.

Thanks.

Very interesting.

OC, the peep was joseki at the time.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:10 am

Problem 4: I'm not giving away anything by saying that White needs to choose between continuing locally (if so where), or playing elsewhere (if so where).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Reference sequence $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Superficially traditionally,

induces

which induces

; if next Black encloses the lower right, both have an ideal extension, so

encloses the other corner and White approaches the lower right. This looks too good for White, so Black will probably play elsewhere with

preferably enclosing the lower right. So, should White play differently locally ? Or play the lower right immediately?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Reference sequence $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . | $$ | . . O , 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

puts more pressure on the left side so

gets more weight but then

is almost compulsory. It's unclear who'll get the lower right now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Reference sequence $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Since Black can't pressure the top left very severely, due to the hanging connection,

can probably go to the important corner right away.

This is my choice.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:46 am

I think that we need to realize the context here. Katago calculates that

is a mistake worth several % in winrate and a few tenths of a point. I was surprised that GoGoD has 137 examples of this fuseki. The normal human continuation has been to simply enclose the upper right, mainly making the small knight shimari. Katago calculates that this is around 5% worse than playing b at the 3-3 point in the lower left. The approach at

is the second most popular idea in human play. However, there are only two games with Black replying to

with

. Instead Black more often initiates some form of the nadare joseki with c in place of

. Katago calculates that White should reply to

locally. However, after

, Black should switch to b in the lower left. The difference is not large but Black is still better of by being the first to play there. When Black connects instead, White would be better off to enclose the bottom left and when White extends at the top instead, Black should take the last opportunity to invade.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black to play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . 0 . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . 8 c . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

At this point there are two unfinished corners for Black to choose from. Blue is the large knight's enclosure at the bottom right while the same large knight enclosure in the top right is a close competitor. But there is something else here as well. Katago calculates that White's invasion at a on the left side is a very important point. In the actual game White never plays there. However, looking at katago's analysis the issue persists. This does not appear in human play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black to play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Policy for White when Black takes the bottom.

If we run a search in GoGoD on the left side of the board in the game. There are 260 hits. Only 7 of the games have the next play at k below. The ten plays that appear more frequently are marked a through j (variously for White and Black, e.g. White's most frequent next play in this area is the extension at a while Black's is the attachment at b). In reality play normally moves elsewhere, often for considerable lengths of time.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Continuations $$+ - - - - - - - $$| . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . $$| . . . O . O . $$| . . O , i . f $$| . . O X . . g $$| . . X . . . j $$| . . . X . . . $$| . . k . . . . $$| . . . . . . . $$| . . . , . . . $$| . . X . . . . $$| . . . . . . . $$| . . e . . . . $$| . . . . . . . $$| . . O . . . . $$| . . . , . . h $$| . . . O b c a $$| . . . d . . . $$| . . . . . . . $$+ - - - - - - -[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:53 pm

Applying the LZ Opening Gospel to problem 4:

No urgent local situations or class -3 to -1.
The presence of the 5-3 stone means it's not an empty corner, but class 1 tells you to play only 4-4 or 4-3 as the first move in corner, and a litle interpretation of the gospel tells you correcting your mistake of playing silly distant corner moves by turning them back into a good 3-4 shimari is somewhere between class 1 (first move in empty corner) and class 2 (shimari/approach a 3-4). So the gospel says white should play:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White to play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Gospel gets it right again! (Honestly, I didn't bribe Bill to set this up)

Gospel: 3, Humans: 0, N/A: 1

iopq · Post by **iopq** » Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:25 pm

Uberdude wrote:Applying the LZ Opening Gospel to problem 4:

No urgent local situations or class -3 to -1.
The presence of the 5-3 stone means it's not an empty corner, but class 1 tells you to play only 4-4 or 4-3 as the first move in corner, and a litle interpretation of the gospel tells you correcting your mistake of playing silly distant corner moves by turning them back into a good 3-4 shimari is somewhere between class 1 (first move in empty corner) and class 2 (shimari/approach a 3-4).

In this case, because you made a low shimari it's not actually efficient according to fat KataGo.

But having the white stone at 5-4 is JUST as good as 4-4, where the Black win rate is 50.5% or so in both cases. With the stone at 5-4 it likes the shimari, with the stone at 4-4 it likes approaching another 3-4

You may also notice that playing 3-3 vs. a 5-4 stone is good, but not necessarily better than vs. a 4-4 stone

dhu163 · Post by **dhu163** » Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:55 am

Life In 19x19

Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5

Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5

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Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problems 4 and 5