Posts: 6727 Location: Cambridge, UK Liked others: 436 Was liked: 3720
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Knotwilg, I wouldn't want to give black the choice to trade corner for side because it makes the top side open and when White gets the corner Black's side group is still not 100% alive (s13).
Posts: 2432 Location: Ghent, Belgium Liked others: 360 Was liked: 1021
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
Uberdude wrote:
Knotwilg, I wouldn't want to give black the choice to trade corner for side because it makes the top side open and when White gets the corner Black's side group is still not 100% alive (s13).
I like the first order of moves better too, for the reasons you mention. (But the AI said so!)
[go]$$Bc White is disconnected $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . O . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . O O O O X . . , . . O X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . O X . X 3 4 X . X . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O . . . O 5 1 . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . O 2 O . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . X . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . X . . . . . . X X X . X . O . | $$ | . X O . . . O . X . X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . O . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . X . O . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[go]$$Wc Katago's answer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X X X X O O X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . b . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . X O . O . . O . . . . . . . a X . | $$ | . . X O . X O O . O . . . X X X X O . | $$ | . . X O . X X X O O . O X . O . O O . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . X . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White needs to reduce Black's moyo. White won't have any difficulty escaping since Black will need at some point to spend a move at "a", and since the ponnuki provides some support. In addition, Black's wall doesn't have eyes yet, so Black will also need to defend. White might even get a chance to play a big endgame move at "b" later.
I like the first order of moves better too, for the reasons you mention. (But the AI said so!)
Is it possible that what bots show in this sense is unreliable? I am mindful of Bill strictures to remember that bots are only really interested in win rates. In other words, they are interested only in the destination, not how they get there. I assume it may be possible for two lines, one with an inferior move order but where the relevant moves are eventually made nonetheless in both lines, to give the same evaluation (because it's the same end position).
I like the first order of moves better too, for the reasons you mention. (But the AI said so!)
Is it possible that what bots show in this sense is unreliable? I am mindful of Bill strictures to remember that bots are only really interested in win rates. In other words, they are interested only in the destination, not how they get there. I assume it may be possible for two lines, one with an inferior move order but where the relevant moves are eventually made nonetheless in both lines, to give the same evaluation (because it's the same end position).
(Emphasis mine.)
To be clear, this is about actual win rates, not win rate estimates. I.e., the bots are trained to win games. Humans use the win rate estimates that the bots produce to compare positions and plays.
_________________ The Adkins Principle: At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on? — Winona Adkins
[go]$$Wc White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X O O X . . O . X . . . X O . | $$ | . . X X . X O . X . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X O O X . . O . X . . . X O . | $$ | . . X X . X O . X . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[go]$$Wc Critical groups $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X 2 . 3 . X O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . 1 . X O . O X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X O O X . . O . X . . . X O . | $$ | . . X X . X O . X . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
These three groups all look critically urgent somehow. Separating Black feels good to me, so my first thought was:
[go]$$Wc Cut first, think later! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X O O X 7 . O . X . . . X O . | $$ | . . X X . X O 5 X . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X . 3 2 . . O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 O X a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . 6 1 , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The problem seems to be simply that @ a means White hasn't achieved very much. Knowing that there are counter cuts that don't work for Black doesn't mean Black has to go anywhere near them.
[go]$$Wc Crude sense of humour $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X O O X 2 . O . X . . . X O . | $$ | . . X X . X O 1 X 6 8 . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X . . 5 3 4 O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X 7 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This lovely uber-crude line (I tend to use this to identify what I care about the most) just cripples my own top group and doesn't successfully cut anyway, so perhaps something more subtle?
[go]$$Wc White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X O O X . . O . X . . . X O . | $$ | . . X X . X O a X . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X . b 4 3 5 O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . b O X 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[go]$$Wc Does White win this? Looks ok $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X O O X . . O . X . . . X O . | $$ | . . X X . X O . X 4 5 . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X . . 7 3 6 O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 8 b . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . 2 9 a c . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . O 0 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[go]$$Wc White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X O O X . . O . X . . . X O . | $$ | . . X X . X O . X . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X . . . 4 2 O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 . 5 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[go]$$Wc White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X O O X . . O . X . . . X O . | $$ | . . X X . X O . X . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X . . . 2 4 O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 . 5 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[go]$$Wc White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X O O X . . O . X . . . X O . | $$ | . . X X . X O 5 X . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X . 3 2 . . O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I think these are all probably playable... reading is hard
[go]$$Wc My guess $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X O O X . . O . X . . . X O . | $$ | . . X X . X O . X . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Posts: 4511 Location: Chatteris, UK Liked others: 1589 Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
@jlt
looking at your hide I realised I'd got the right point this time, but does it succeed in killing the top black group? It looks like it does to me, but if it doesn't, all my justifications for picking the move disappear quite quickly!
[go]$$Wc Variation 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X O O X 4 . O . X . . . X O . | $$ | . . X X . X O 3 X 2 5 . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X . . 9 7 8 O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 0 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[go]$$Wcm11 Variation 1, continued $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . a 9 0 . . . . . . | $$ | . c . O X X X X . . O 8 . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X W . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X O O X X . O . X . . . X O . | $$ | . . X X . X O O X X O . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X . . O O X O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X 4 6 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . b X 1 3 5 7 . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After a, Black disconnects two groups with b and then White lives in gote with c. So Black's top group is dead but White is disconnected, cannot save the marked stone and gets a weakish group in the center.
[go]$$Wc Second variation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X O O X 8 . O . X . . . X O . | $$ | . . X X . X O 7 X . 0 . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X . 3 2 . 6 O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . 5 O X 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . 4 9 , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[go]$$Wcm11 Second variation, continued $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X W . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X 5 . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X O O X X . O 3 X . . . X O . | $$ | . . X X . X O O X 2 X 4 . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . X . O X 1 X O . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So White doesn't kill Black but is connected, saves the marked stone and has a strong position in the center.
Needless to say, reading these variations is very difficult, but at least I can try to add the clamp to my library of shapes.
[go]$$Bc Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . O . O . O X O | $$ | . X O O O X . X . X O O X O O O X O . | $$ | X . X O . X . . . X O X X X X X X O . | $$ | . X X O . . O . . . X . X O . O O X . | $$ | X . X O O . . . . . . X X . O . O X . | $$ | . X O X O X . . . O X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X X O O O O X X O X . . . X . . | $$ | . O X X . X X O X O O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . X X O . O . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X . . X O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X X O . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[go]$$Bc Answer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . O . O . O X O | $$ | . X O O O X . X . X O O X O O O X O . | $$ | X . X O . X . . . X O X X X X X X O . | $$ | . X X O . . O . . . X . X O . O O X . | $$ | X . X O O . . 1 . . . X X . O . O X . | $$ | . X O X O X . . . W X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X X W W W W X X O X . . . X . . | $$ | . O X X . X X W X O O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . X X O . O . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X . . X O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X X O . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[go]$$Bc Cut! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . O 1 2 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . X X O a 4 . . . X X . . | $$ | . . X . X O X X O O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O X O X X O O X , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X O X X O X O . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Of course I saw the cut, but my wrong reasoning was that after , White would continue pushing and thus weaken the stones on the right of the board. But in fact, White needs to come back and defend the cutting point "a", thus giving Black the time to reinforce Q10. , and force White to crawl on the second line while building a moyo.
[go]$$Wcm11 answer, continued $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . X O O . 3 1 4 | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , 7 . X X O O O X . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O 6 . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |[/go]
At some point, Black needs to connect with , which gives White a chance to pincer the top three stones. The pincering stone is at the same time an extension for the wall E17. If Black wants to save the three stones N16, then White will launch a splitting attack, which is effective since Black's top right group is not yet completely alive.
In the game, I simply blocked at S16. This is not a good move because Black can now defend the three stones and at the same time pincer White's wall:
[go]$$Wc White's mistake $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . 4 . 2 . . . X O O . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . X X O O O 1 . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . O O B B B . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |[/go]
White could capture the marked black stones with an extra move, but that's not big because White has already spent a move with , so Black can sacrifice the three stones.
Back to the original move suggested by Katago: what if jumps into the corner?
[go]$$Wc Solution $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . X O O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O . . X . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . X X O O X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . X O O X X . X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X O O O O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . O O . X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X X . . O O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X . . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . O X , . O X . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X a . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O 1 b . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
In the game I simply played "a", but it's better to connect with a "forcing move" like . Strictly speaking, is not forcing because even if Black doesn't respond, White won't push at "b" immediately. Still, the option is left for later.
I am now playing on my 1k Fox account again. So far I am doing well with 7W 2L. The last win wasn't completely deserved, as my opponent resigned early after I killed a small group and got an 86% advantage.
Anyway, here is a position from the game.
Position #32 : Black to play in the upper-left quadrant. Several good moves are possible, try to find one.
The sequence weakens the white group. Even if the black stones and are only loosely connected, White is weak enough so that after , Black can afford to tenuki at "a".
Even if White adds a move at some point, Black has several possibilities to reinforce his group, like
The fight is complicated but Black has nothing to fear since he has moves like "a" or "b" to strenghen his group, while White's group also has weaknesses.
In the first diagram, another way for Black to play is
Now both players have two weak groups, but Black's position looks a bit better since Black's groups have access to the edge, and one of Black's groups separates two white groups.
After 13 wins in a row I got double-promoted to 2 dan on Fox. Did the ranks recently become weaker on that server? I am still 3k on IGS... and stuck at 6k on OGS. Anyway here is a position from last game. Black is trying to survive in the lower left corner.
[go]$$Bc Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . X . X X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O X X O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X | $$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . X X X O O . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The first move is "straightforward" (even if I didn't find it in my game).
[go]$$Bc answer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X . X . X X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O X X O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X | $$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . X X X O O . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . 1 . O O X . . . . . . X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black increases its liberties and tries to kill one of the three surrounding groups. Many continuations are possible depending on White's answer, here is one which is not optimal for White but illustrates what may happen.
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