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 Post subject: Opening problems for AI: Problem 18
Post #1 Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:00 am 
Honinbo

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Another Karigane special. Even though these are no komi games, which obviously affects the play, Karigane — and surely other strong players of his time — made few plays in the opening that were more than minor errors from the point of view of modern komi go.

In this game, GoGoD 1904-14-13a, Karigane's opponent, Ito Kotaro, 5 dan, made what I think we have to call a blunder, losing 22% to par, according to Elf.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27 Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X O . O . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I wonder if we can call this an only move problem. Elf's top choice got 59.8k rollouts, with second play getting fewer than 1.5k rollouts. Do other bots agree?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 18
Post #2 Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:47 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27 3d line jump
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . B . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . B O . O . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . B . . 2 1 . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:b27: bolster's Black's bottom right corner and calls out to the :bc: stones on the bottom side. Karigane blocked with :w28:, but the bottom side is not quite so urgent, now.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 Elf's mainline for :w28:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 3 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X O . O . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . 5 X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:w28: secures the top left corner, then :b31: encloses the top right corner. Only now does :w32: return to the bottom side. Corners before sides. (?)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Mainline for :w28:, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O O , . 1 3 . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X O . O . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . O X 5 X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:b33: presses against the top left corner, then White reduces and contains the bottom right corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27 Black take the top left corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . B 7 8 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 3 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X O . O . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:b27: takes the 3-3 point in the top left corner. The action now switches to the top right corner, where White plays the AI/Go Seigen 4-4 shoulder blow against Black's 5-3 stone, :bc:. :b29: and :b31: push into the center, and the :b33: turns into the corner.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 Mainline, continued. Large scale attack.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . X X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 7 . , . . . . X O 5 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X O . O . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:w36: and then :w38: jumps into the center, attacking Black's floating stones on a large scale while casting an eye on the top side. As Black defends in the center, :w38: connects in the top right corner and :w40: extends from the top left corner.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 18
Post #3 Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:21 am 
Oza

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Bill

If you haven't checked it already...

Play Black's game move and look where White's best move is then. Best to sit down before you look.

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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 18
Post #4 Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:47 am 
Honinbo

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John Fairbairn wrote:
Bill

If you haven't checked it already...

Play Black's game move and look where White's best move is then. Best to sit down before you look.


Thanks, John. :)

If it's where I think it is, it's quite a nice move. :)
Q-16
Elf prefers another move, though.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Profile  
 
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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 18
Post #5 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:23 am 
Lives in gote

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Rank: UK 2d Dec15
KGS: mathmo 4d
IGS: mathmo 4d
Speculatively:
Current position:
1. C17 seems obvious. Otherwise C16.
2. There is also R16.
3. E5 doesn't seem to work.

Opp to play
1. C16 of course
2. Q15 also interesting to try to capture P8 on large scale.
3. C3 is interesting.

Past:
1. W is very thick in lower right, but actually has played a lot of stones. B has all 4 corners. W thin in E6. I like B.

Check:
1. close in some places

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