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 Post subject: Opening problems for AI: Problem 20
Post #1 Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:17 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12 White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Honinbo Shusai's textbook play loses 12½% to par, according to Elf.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 20
Post #2 Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:53 am 
Honinbo

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The game is GoGoD 1926-05-07a, Honinbo Shusai Meijin (W) vs. Iwamoto Kaoru, 6 dan.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12 Shusai extends on top side
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Just to show that the side extension from the 4-4 is not some New Fuseki brainstorm. :) Somewhat surprising that it loses 12½% to par, as White does not seem to have any particularly good alternative. This is just an ordinary board. :)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Mainline for :b13:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 5 6 . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X 3 4 . 8 . 0 , . . . . . , X X . |
$$ | . . . . O . 1 . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Elf recommends the one space pincer in the bottom left corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 Mainline for :b13:, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 5 , X 0 . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X X O . O . O , . . . . . , X X . |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Followed by the two space pincer in the top left corner. When :b31: approaches the top right corner, :w32: cuts at F-16.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12 AI special
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Elf's top choice is the AI special, the press in the bottom left corner.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Mainline for :w12:, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . 5 3 1 . , X X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . 6 . 4 2 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Next White shifts to a different press in the bottom right corner. Finally White encloses the top right corner. Bread and butter play for today's AI. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 20
Post #3 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:25 am 
Lives in gote

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KGS: mathmo 4d
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Speculatively:
Current position:
1. C12 and D5 both very big but also somewhat miai. Each is blocked by two fairly strong B groups for development so they aren't making a big side moyo.
2. On the right, R13 to shore up the light stones seems appropriate.
3. Perhaps D5 first, then R13 or something.
4. I assume Shusai defended the stones on the right, perhaps R9

Opp to play
1. D5 is my instinct.
2. R10 seems interesting.

Past:
1. Lower right means B marginally ahead

Check:
1. Shusai played there?!
2. Elf mainline for 13 is interesting, somehow getting the pincer on the left as well as a wall around D5.
3. I didn't expect the AI variation. I see B has a potential liberty shortage if W gets P4 or S5.

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