Opening problems for AI: Problem 46

lightvector · Post by **lightvector** » Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:20 pm

Tryss wrote:What's interesting is an alternative move by Katago :

$$Bc Alternative play by Katago
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$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 9 3 . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . 8 . . W . b . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Alternative play by Katago $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 9 3 . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . 8 . . W . b . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It has lower policy than a, but about the same winrate/score, and become the "blue move" with enough playouts ( over 100k in my case)

Interestingly, the 40-block network seems to differ here a little, and prefer's ELF's move more.

KataGo seems to have different preferences than ELF in a number of other places in one of Bill's presented lines. It's hard to say whether for sure whether they are better or worse in some cases.

Prefers this slightly over "a":

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . a W . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X . . . O . X . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Prefers this slightly over "a". Deeper search suggests this doesn't necessarily lead to a better result, but is also interesting and tricky for white to deal with:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . a . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X X . . 1 . . . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X . . . O . X . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Some variations for the diagonal:

One possible way. This way is a little favorable for black. Black has a bit of ugly shape on the left, but white is pretty busy everywhere.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . 6 . 3 . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . 8 2 5 . 4 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X X 1 . B . . . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X . . . O . X . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This way white pulls some tesujis out of a hat and fights back well, but black will still end up fine ends up fine anyways. The wedge is a sacrifice to let white break out, otherwise white would probably be in trouble here, but black will poke out too and continues to attack afterward.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . 6 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . 9 . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X X 1 . B . 3 5 . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X 8 7 . O . X 4 . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This result is slightly favorable for black. The 8-9 exchange is locally ugly, but stops white from wedging at "a", and black is splitting both white groups while still poking ahead of white on the left side and making profit there.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . 2 7 . 1 6 . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . O 8 a . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X X 9 . B . 3 5 . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X . . . O . X 4 . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Unlike the above two cases which one might classify as just a difference in preference, in this case, KataGo thinks ELF's "a" for black is a noticeable mistake, and prefers 1-2-3 to take a sente exchange and not let white have the chance to run in the first place. White's lone stone isn't entirely dead, but black has control:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . a . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . W X . O . . X . . 3 . . . X O . . | $$ | . . W X X O . . . . . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X . . . O . X . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White's cut doesn't work, which means that at the expense of strengthening white with a not-great exchange for the outside, black has managed to kill white's two stones in sente, instead of gote. Note that if black were to exchange "a"-"b" below, then white's "c" would work here due to a squeeze and ladder, this is the reason for not playing the peep and why sente is possible if the peep is omitted.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 X O b a . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . 3 1 X O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . O . . X . . X . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O X X O . . . . . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X . . . O . X . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:28 pm

Wow! You gotta love those 18th century games.

dhu163 · Post by **dhu163** » Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:51 am

Life In 19x19

Opening problems for AI: Problem 46

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 46

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 46

Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 46