Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game ?

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gennan
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Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Post by gennan »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:How do you understand that a white move at "a" may be better (just slightly better) than a move at "b" as suggested by Michael Redmond?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . e . . . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
KataGo shows only tiny differences between a to d. Overall it slightly prefers b and c (those seem to be almost identical in value: "blue" is switching between those all the time).
If I let it run for a longer time, this seems to be the order of its preference: c, b, a, d.

With Michael's proposal of white a, KataGo would continue with black e, white b. So KataGo doesn't really agree with Michael's reasoning. I think Michael's idea is interesting, but I'm not sure if white a is really better than b.

I am ofcourse much weaker than Michael (and probably not much stronger than you). I would probably not come up with his idea in my own game. And even if I did, I don't know if I could really convince myself that a is definitely better than b. I feel like a is a bit fancy.
If this were my own game, I would just play b without much thought, because it looks normal and good to me.
Even now that I've seen Michael's idea, I would probably only play a when facing a calm 5d+ player (playing something out of the ordinary to hopefully increase my chances).
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Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Post by gennan »

BTW, if white plays b(M17), KataGo foresees this continuation on my machine, which sort of summarizes everything said above with an optimized move order (and Michael's idea is even in there, but with a slightly different timing):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . . 7 8 . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . 5 X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 7 3 O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 5 4 8 . Q . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
KataGo likes the efficiency of black R12 compared to white F3, so it feels that it's not quite good enough for white (but this sharp perception might be a bit beyond unaided human sensitivity). For that reason, it slightly prefers white c(R13) over b(M17) in the original position.

KataGo thinks this should probably happen instead:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
For both players, this variation seems to follow the principle of preferring mutual damage over responding to your opponent's "sente" moves (puppy go).
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Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Post by Knotwilg »

For me the alphago move was an easy guess thanks to Uberdude's opening gospel based on LeelaZero.

https://senseis.xmp.net/?LeelaZerosOpeningGospel

Before having acquired that kind of thinking, I would definitely have chosen one of the two extensions/undercuts suggested by Redmond and very likely have chosen the one on the left side. I may also have been seduced into playing a defensive extension on the right side.

Also, I would have treated the small knight corner reinforcements (to avoid "enclosure") as equivalent so I would not have thought the lower left corner was urgent.

Correcting (bad/old) habits is not easy but in the opening I seem to have managed changing my thinking and playing during an actual game. I won't go as far as repeating the old amateur adage "I'm strong at the opening" but I have found it way easier to learn about the opening from bots (and players like Ubderdude reviewing bot behavior) than about the middle game, where bots' ability to find life or break through enemy lines is very case specific.
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Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Post by John Fairbairn »

For me the alphago move was an easy guess thanks to Uberdude's opening gospel based on LeelaZero.
I think it may be time for St Dude to take up his hammer and chisel again, if he is willing to engrave more tablets. While I'm sure following the old advice will do no harm and will probably produce better openings for amateurs, my strong impression is that the pro world has moved on. We are now seeing lots of ordinary one-space high and low shimaris, lots of 3-3 plays in empty corners, lots of ignoring low approaches and accepting being pressed, more pincers, and more emphasis on the side (Ke Jie's daidaigeima response to the low approach by Mi Yuting in the recent Ticai Cup struck me).

In fact, apart from the still ubiquitous Direct 3-3 I'd be tempted to say pro go is going back to "normal". If that's the case, is it because they are going back to their comfort zones or because their research with AI has progressed? I'd guess the latter. Earlier this month (Oct 2020) the Nihon Ki-in invited Dr Yoshizoe Kazuki (a 4-dan amateur) from the Search and Parallel Processing Unit of the Rikagaku Kenkyusho (a major scientific research institute in Japan) to advise a committee set up specifically to help pros understand AI. Details were obviously not revealed, though I infer that at this stage it was pitched more at the introductory level of what's out there, but they did focus on Leela and katago, and there was a reference to statistics having already been compiled.
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Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Post by Knotwilg »

John Fairbairn wrote:
For me the alphago move was an easy guess thanks to Uberdude's opening gospel based on LeelaZero.
I think it may be time for St Dude to take up his hammer and chisel again, if he is willing to engrave more tablets.
I'm not 100% sure but I think Dude used the word gospel tongue in cheek, or at least as a catch phrase, which is the way I have adopted it. Unfortunately I don't have the time and energy to follow the pro evolution post-AlphaGo and it's very comforting to see that human experts keep trying to be creative and keep studying the opening for themselves, to try and have an edge over those simply obeying any "gospel".

One thing that has definitely not been satisfactorily explained or understood, is why a 3-3 invasion would be so urgent that it's played almost without hesitation while a 3-3 opening would be so slow that it's hardly ever played. Might be a perversion (self confirming loopholes) by the algorithms. If the pros now move to more 3-3 openings, that seems to indicate AI is indeed not fully onto the truth there.
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Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Post by RobertJasiek »

Strong Ai play can be far from perfect play unless AI uses proof play or mathematically proven expertise of perfect play.
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Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Post by Kirby »

Knotwilg wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:
For me the alphago move was an easy guess thanks to Uberdude's opening gospel based on LeelaZero.
I think it may be time for St Dude to take up his hammer and chisel again, if he is willing to engrave more tablets.
I'm not 100% sure but I think Dude used the word gospel tongue in cheek, or at least as a catch phrase, which is the way I have adopted it. Unfortunately I don't have the time and energy to follow the pro evolution post-AlphaGo and it's very comforting to see that human experts keep trying to be creative and keep studying the opening for themselves, to try and have an edge over those simply obeying any "gospel".

One thing that has definitely not been satisfactorily explained or understood, is why a 3-3 invasion would be so urgent that it's played almost without hesitation while a 3-3 opening would be so slow that it's hardly ever played. Might be a perversion (self confirming loopholes) by the algorithms. If the pros now move to more 3-3 openings, that seems to indicate AI is indeed not fully onto the truth there.
I'm a fan of Uberdude's Opening Gospel, but even early on when I was trying it out, I noticed that it wasn't always perfectly aligned with the top recommendations I'd see on KataGo. But in a lot of cases, you'll still be somewhat on track, even if you've lost a small amount.

A common example I'll see is the shape in the bottom right here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Usually when I analyze with KataGo with that kind of shape, it's somewhat big to help out that white approaching stone. Strictly following the gospel, I don't see a reason to do it, though. According to the gospel, I should probably 3-3 invade in the top right.

But my version of KataGo really seems to like playing here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Implicitly, there's the idea of an "urgent move" in the gospel, so it could be argued that helping this stone is urgent. But without defining "urgent", the other rules of the gospel can be broken at any time for the sake of playing something that seems urgent.

That being said, the 3-3 invasion in the top right is still an option KataGo is considering early on here, and I don't think it'd be that bad to play it.
be immersed
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Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Post by RobertJasiek »

Kirby wrote: But my version of KataGo really seems to like playing here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Either KataGo is wrong or an old book by a Japanese pro saying that the white move was in a bad position because the exchange Black a - White b favoured Black.
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Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Post by John Fairbairn »

That being said, the 3-3 invasion in the top right is still an option KataGo is considering early on here, and I don't think it'd be that bad to play it.
Agreed, but with one caveat. This is still just an unformed notion in my mind, but I think the word 'invasion' needs looking at again in the light of AI wisdom.

In military terms. invasion has strong associations with occupation, and I think, we carry that over to go. When we invade we look to live, and that further plays into the idea of living as big as possible. Obviously some invasions end in a running battle, but that's part of go being a two-person game, and equally obviously invading and living can sometimes be too small and so be the wrong strategy. But, on the whole, I'd say the ideal invasion involves occupying the opponent's putative territory with a healthy life. That in turn means we accept being attacked and surrounded, with the result that most such "good" invasions are gote.

But what I notice about AI play is that bots don't seem to make gote invasions, except in extremis. They will happily start sente invasions, but if things go pear-shaped they seem quick to abort, so as to keep the initiative. In my own mind I think of such bot play not as invasions but rather as 'raids'. In guerilla warfare is often a better model for go than regimental warfare.

This is not a new idea, at least for me. If you look at old Chinese games, invasions are relatively rare. The explanation is usually quite simple. Group tax applies. If you invade and live you are making a new, separate group, so there's -2 straightaway, and there's a strong chance the opponent, in enveloping you, will join two of his groups up, so there's another -2 points.

What you normally see instead is what I call 'encroachment' - a sort of mini-invasion or incursion (侵) where you make sure your encroaching forces stay firmly connected to friendly stones. And if possible you also try to drive in the wedge in such a way that you either split the enemy (分), or at least confirm his groups stay separated.

This is turn means that boundary plays have a much bigger profile in OC go, and explains why the Guanzi Pu (often incorrectly thought of as being a manual of endgame play) was such an important book - it was a novel manual of boundary plays. It does not feature many problems of the type you might expect if you have the word 'endgame' in your mind, i.e. those that have to do with making an extra point or so. But it does have a goodly number of relatively large-scale positions where the point is to make a mini-invasion or 'encroachment'. There are even encroachment josekis. Maybe the best known is the 3-6 Encroachment or 三六侵分, often played in the late opening even. 侵分 can be split up to mean 'intrude and separate' but is actually a single go word which was important enough to be taken over from Chinese to Japanese to mean 'yose' (i.e. boundary plays). It was common in Japan pre-war (rather than guanzi 官子), but usually required furigana to show the unexpected reading yose. That does not sit well with the modern temper, so we now get a simpler kanji or even just katakana.

All that is to make a case that 'invasions' can be and indeed have been re-thought in the evolution of go theory. So there is no reason why we should not ponder whether further re-thinking is necessary in the latest stage of evolution. Call them just sente invasions and gote invasions if you prefer, but in botdom I think it's important now to add the attributive.
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Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Post by Bill Spight »

John Fairbairn wrote:But, on the whole, I'd say the ideal invasion involves occupying the opponent's putative territory with a healthy life.
Pour moi, the ideal invasion is one where it is unclear whether to go for the kill or not. (In practice, they go for the kill. ;))

One thing that has impressed me about the bots is how often they prefer very shallow reductions. Something that, like a lot of AI play, I associate with Go Seigen. :)
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