Opening study with KataGo

Create a study plan, track your progress and hold yourself accountable.
RobertJasiek
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Re: Opening study with KataGo

Post by RobertJasiek »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc result
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"KataGo doesn't like this joseki"

What is KataGo's difference of percentages at the game start and at this position from Black's view?

And does it see the ko at this moment?
Bill Spight
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Re: Game 7, part 1

Post by Bill Spight »

hakuseki wrote:I may continue game 6 later, but I wanted to skip ahead to a position from game 7 that presents a confusing contrast. I played white in this game.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Should white play [b]a[/b], [b]b[/b], or [b]c[/b]?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . a O X X X b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Recalling KataGo's advice on position 3 of game 6, I chose to play c here. But KataGo says that is a bad move, and I should play a! I really don't see how a is different from the move I was admonished for playing in the previous game. I would be super happy if anyone has thoughts that can clarify this.
First, a is not just a corner play. It has influence on the bottom side.

Second, in general Black has more leeway than White in the opening, despite the somewhat large komi.

Third, in this game all four sides are undeveloped, so developing one of them is not so urgent. In the other game the left side is developed, so if Black develops the right side there is more to the idea of leaving the top and bottom side as miai. In general, extending on the side to make a moyo is a second tier play in the opening. The later in the opening, the more likely the extension is to be a good play.

Fourth, and related in particular to the second point. Despite the large komi White's job in the opening is more to thwart Black's development than to pursue his own development.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
John Fairbairn
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Re: Opening study with KataGo

Post by John Fairbairn »

it's rather delightful to come across a position where the side extension is favored over a corner move.

This leads me to a hypothesis: the correct timing for a side extension is when both corners are exerting significant influence towards the side.
I haven't got the answers, but I have a feeling that I know where the answers lie. I have come to this feeling after having recently looked at a lot of old Chinese commentaries where the terms used are rather different from the ones the Japanese and thus we tend to use. They are looking at similar positions but through a different prism. It is often startling how much difference that makes. Another related thing that affects perception is different emphasis. The old Chinese seem to stress timing far more than the modern commentators.

I suspect therefore that, to make progress with learning from AI, we are going to have to devise a new vocabulary.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 1 X O O O b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
For example, in your example above (which I will call Diagram 1), you talk (as we all would) get away from the concept of extensions: "both corners are exerting significant influence towards the side."

But, as you also note, that way of talking lets us down in the following case (Diagram 2):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . a O X X X b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Extensions are rarely mentioned in old Chinese, expect in the very limited sense of two- or three-space extensions. That tells us straightaway that we don't actually have to talk about extensions at all! The Chinese put the emphasis instead on expanding "power" (势) or what we might call a sphere of influence. For similar reasons they don't talk about thickness, so again that tells us we don't have to, either.

Let us therefore try to look at Diagrams 1 and 2 by eschewing the concept of extensions, but without going overboard and trying to apply the Chinese world view. Let us use the western concept (Matthew Macfadyen's) of "virtual territory."

The basis of VT is that you map out a large area that is big enough to be divided in two, and say that, "If he invases on one side - I don't care which - he will live small but I will get a large confirmed territory on the other side.

This does work out that way in practice, but the theory doesn't seem very popular. In think that's because it may work as predicted but doesn't give good overall results. I think AI shows why.

If we look at Diagram 2, the VT area can essentially be divided into two areas. Bad.

But if we look at Diagram 1, the VT area can be divided into three areas. Good.

My speculation about what is happening (which seems to fit with games by pros who study with AI) is that the gain from a VT area split in two is not enough. The lone "safe" area that results after an invasion of the other side is still subject to erasure and so on. You end up over-protecting your investment.

With a three-area VT, however, you end up two safe-to-safish areas after invasion of the other, and instead of the opponent being able to apply pressure at his leisure on your one big nest egg, he ends up instead having to chase two rabbits at once.

If there is anything in that or a similar theory, it seems to be that we should get a away from the idea of talking about extensions, which have strong connotations about territoru on the side. Instead, we should find a term that forces us to think about potential territory in a more VT or "sphere of influence" way, and to use terms such as fence post or claim markers, or whatever. It may be that a move chosen that way coincides with the spot chosen for an extension, but the mindset is very different. In particular, the VT or SOI mindset might usefully lead you to reject a move on an extension point and, indeed, encourage to play moves on points you never looked at before because they were not extensions.

I think this language-controlled mindset comes up in other ways. In Diagram 2, for example, generations of us, pros included, have always assumed that a Black move at 'a' is only natural. That is because we have been bombarded with testosterone-laden advice. We must apply "kiai", we mustn't let White play 'a' and "force" us to connect. we must "bully" the opponent and "press" him into the corner, etc etc.

But if we strip away all of that language and look at the position dispassionately, we could alternatively say White 'a' "helps" Black to connect. We could note that there is no loss because it is the exchange of a third -line move for a fourth-line move, which we know to be normally equal. And of course, not playing 'a' means Black gets sente to play elsewhere first. Bots do that a lot. Old Chinese commentaries stress that a lot. A recurring phrase in OC commentaries which you don't see in Japanese commentaries is 'fighting for the initiative' 争先.

The Jesuits used to say, give me the child and I will give you the man. The main tool in their armoury to achieve that result was, quite simply, words.

Using new words in go may be like switching from using a donkey to power a grinding stone to using a two-stroke engine. One small step for man. A large leap for donkeys.
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Re: Opening study with KataGo

Post by lightvector »

Here is a matrix of KataGo's policy intuition for whether to play on the side around the b area instead of extending at a, if we vary the two corner enclosures. These were derived from me eyeballing the policy probabilities with the particular random symmetries for one run of analysis, rounding them, and giving partial credit if there were multiple side moves that each individually were not preferred, but together took up some more of the policy mass.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 3 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 3 3 1 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b b . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . a O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Code: Select all

SK = small knight enclosure
LK = large knight enclosure
OP = one point jump enclosure
TP = two point jump enclosure

lightvector's ad-hoc eyeballed metric for KataGo 40b's policy intuitive preference for moves around b instead of a:

B\W      4-4 SK   3-4 LK   4-4 OP   3-4 SK   3-4 TP   3-4 OP
4-4 SK      8       10       13       16       23       42
3-4 SK      3        7        7       11       20       35
3-4 LK      3        6        9       15       17       20
4-4 OP      2        5        7        6       12       34
3-4 TP      1        3        5        5       6        26
3-4 OP      0        0        1        1       2         5
Note that KataGo's search sometimes disagrees with the above policy - sometimes the policy probabilities would be lower yet the search decided the side move was best, sometimes they were higher yet the search decided the move at 'a' was best. But whereas the search will be giving a more accurate answer for this exact position, considering the combinatorics of the possible followup sequences, the policy might be more general in the sense of representing the net's intuition for side extensions averaged across a wide variety of openings "like" this one, so I'd actually like to pay more attention to the raw policy in this case here.

Anyways, the raw policy's intuition appears to show a pretty clear gradient of "power to support a good side framework" for different corner enclosures where the 3-4 OP is at the top, the 3-4 TP is next, and the 4-4 SK is at the bottom, and the rest are in the middle. As black's "side framework support power" increases, KataGo's intuition increasingly prefers "a", to reduce black's potential. As white's "side framework support power" increases, KataGo's intuition increasingly prefers the side extension for white to build their own potential.

We can't ask KataGo directly "why" it has this ranking, but in retrospect the rough ranking matches with some of my intuition as lowly amateur dan. The "side framework support power" here seems to correspond to roughly a notion of influence towards the side plus lack of annoying forcing moves or approach moves against the corner enclosure that would help in invasion/reduction of that side later.

The exact ranking also differs black vs white here, which a-priori isn't shocking since the position isn't symmetric. Probably would need to experiment in many more positions to tease out what the "second factor" is that causes these subtle ordering variations on top of the primary factor of this side influence power. I think there' a chance the "second factor" might also be human-comprehendable, like this "primary factor".
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Re: Opening study with KataGo

Post by lightvector »

By the way, anyone else who likes this should feel free to do studies like this as well, or like the earlier study I did on conjectured optimal komi by board size and ruleset, or other positional studies. I think there could be some more interesting insights to be gained by taking different patterns and varying the stones and seeing how the policy and evaluations respond.

All it took was me clicking through the 36 possibilities in Lizzie while looking at the numbers and writing them down (hit 'b' in Lizzie to toggle the raw policy probabilities). Anyone else could do things like this too. :)
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Re: Opening study with KataGo

Post by lightvector »

Recalling KataGo's advice on position 3 of game 6, I chose to play c here. But KataGo says that is a bad move, and I should play a! I really don't see how a is different from the move I was admonished for playing in the previous game. I would be super happy if anyone has thoughts that can clarify this.
So I guess, if we are to overgeneralize a little without checking other positions, then the TLDR for this is: the 3-4 point one-point-jump enclosure makes it the most important to reduce or expand on the side it faces. The 4-4 knight's move enclosure makes it the least important. The other enclosures are in-between.

So in the first example, playing on the side was correct because white's enclosure was a 3-4 one-point-jump enclosure while black's was only a small knight's. In the second example, playing on the side is bad because white's enclosure is a 4-4 knight enclosure and limiting black is better because now black is the one with the 3-4 one-point-jump enclosure making the bottom side the most important.
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Re: Opening study with KataGo

Post by hakuseki »

Hey, thanks a lot for all the comments and analysis! So, I think my tentative conclusion is that I need to compare the quality of the black and white frameworks to prioritize my own development vs. stifling the opponent's development.
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Re: Opening study with KataGo

Post by hakuseki »

RobertJasiek wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc result
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"KataGo doesn't like this joseki"

What is KataGo's difference of percentages at the game start and at this position from Black's view?

And does it see the ko at this moment?
Assuming a 6.5 komi and Japanese rules, white begins the game at 51.3%. After white's contact play, white is at 51.9%. When black plays the atari to enclose white, white's win rate jumps to 68.0%. With black's solid connection, white climbs to 75%. By the end of the sequence, white has dropped slightly to 74.4%. This is with the latest 30-block network on my machine with an imprecise number of evaluations.

I don't usually talk about win rate in my analysis, though. I think score estimation is more intuitive, and also probably more stable across different networks and evaluation counts.

I think it's a bit hard to say what KataGo thinks about the ko, exactly. It seems pretty sure that white will end up owning the corner, based on the expected territory view (I'm not sure how to pull actual numbers for this out of KaTrain, though, as it only shows me a visualization). I think that makes sense; starting the ko is more of an endgame move, so we will not see it happen for a long time. Maybe there's a 50% chance that black will start the ko (the other possibility being that white settles the corner first). Then white captures first, so I'd guess white has a >50% chance of winning the ko conditional on the ko starting. Overall white should have a >75% chance of living in the corner.
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Game 7, part 2

Post by hakuseki »

Game 7, position 2

Since I played the side extension, black was also allowed to establish a framework, as effectively predicted by several observant comments.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Competing frameworks
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 1 . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X X . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . X O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I played :w1: here, intending to more or less complete white's framework. This move is suboptimal by 1.5 points. Incidentally, a or b would be perfectly good moves here, and perhaps worthy of study. However, right now I'd like to focus on another continuation, also endorsed by KataGo, that is a bit closer to my intention in playing :w1:.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc :w3: could also be played at [b]a[/b]-[b]f[/b]
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . c d . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 e . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 2 X X . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . X O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It seems that my two-space jump was incorrect on two counts. First, the timing was wrong, and white should first push once (why not twice? I believe the first push is sente, as it threatens to hane the two stones, which is rather severe, but after :b2:, black's shape is much stronger, so a second push is not so threatening). Second, my move was in not quite the right spot (the two-space jump is suboptimal by 1 point even after the :w1: :b2: exchange).

At first I wondered if there's some kind of shape preference for a small or large knight's move over a two-space jump. But considering moves like a-d, with no clear shape relationship to any other stone on the board, I doubt that's the issue. Instead, I think it's just that next stone should be near the "middle" of white's framework, and N10 is not in the middle, being closer to the lower side.

Game 7, position 3
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White tries to find a big move
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . f . . . . . . . . . . d X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . g . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . e . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X X . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . X O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My move was :w1:. I think this will probably look strange to most people, but the knight's move cap on the side hoshi is an opening move I've seen in 9-stone handicap games with KataGo (played with high komi; YMMV). However, in this case it was not so brilliant, with other moves being values 0.5-0.7 points higher. I've noted some of those moves here.

(game 7 to be continued)
RobertJasiek
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Re: Opening study with KataGo

Post by RobertJasiek »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc result
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
hakuseki wrote: Assuming a 6.5 komi and Japanese rules, white begins the game at 51.3%. [...] By the end of the sequence, white has [...] 74.4%.
Thanks. I just wanted to know that White has a significantly larger percentage than before in KataGo's opinion.
I think it's a bit hard to say what KataGo thinks about the ko, exactly. [...] Maybe there's a 50% chance that black will start the ko
As long as we do not know if KataGo sees and evaluates the ko correctly, we cannot know if its percentages or score estimates are meaningful from a human view.

The ko deserves an endgame-like evaluation of the local count (for the sake of simplicity, I exclude Black's outer territory), 1 white move away from almost -9 or 2 black moves away from ca. 24. The local move value is ca. (24 - (-9)) / 3 = 11. Hence, the local count of the corner territory is ca. -9 + 1 * 11 = 24 - 2 * 11 = 2 (favouring ---Black---!).

Of course, the influences after either outcome play a great role, too. Black losing the ko loses much influence on the right side.
hakuseki
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Game 7, part 3

Post by hakuseki »

Game 7, position 4
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to attack the marked stones
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O , . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . e . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X X . X O O O O c . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . X O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Actually, white has several good options in this position, such as a-e, but another excellent option is to attack the marked stones. What's the best move to do so?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc KataGo's answer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O , . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X X . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . X O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
There are many possible continuations from here. Here are a couple examples:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White solidifies the top
$$ ----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O 6 . . . . |
$$ O , 2 O . . 5 O . . . |
$$ . . . 1 X . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . 8 X X . . |
$$ . . . . . 7 O 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . X 3 . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . O . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Surrounding two stones
$$ ----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O 8 . . . . |
$$ O , . O 7 5 . O . . . |
$$ . . . 1 X 2 6 . O . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 4 X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . O . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
I am including these for illustrative purposes. However, there are many variations and I wouldn't expect to actually read them all out. Instead, I hope I would find this move by thinking in terms of shape.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Shape considerations
$$ ----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ O , . O . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . Y X . . |
$$ . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ . . . . . Y . . @ . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . O . . @ . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Black's marked stones are an elephant jump shape, which is often considered worth cutting. Furthermore, white's marked stones form a shape that I'd like to comment on. I have started to think of this shape as a "knight's triangle." Although this is the first time I have mentioned it here, I've already seen it appear quite a few times in various game reviews with KataGo. I believe it is a good shape. I still haven't ingrained the habit of looking for this shape, but I think it may be an important concept.
Bill Spight
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Re: Game 7, part 3

Post by Bill Spight »

hakuseki wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Shape considerations
$$ ----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ O , . O . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . Y X . . |
$$ . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ . . . . . Y . . @ . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . O . . @ . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Black's marked stones are an elephant jump shape, which is often considered worth cutting. Furthermore, white's marked stones form a shape that I'd like to comment on. I have started to think of this shape as a "knight's triangle." Although this is the first time I have mentioned it here, I've already seen it appear quite a few times in various game reviews with KataGo. I believe it is a good shape. I still haven't ingrained the habit of looking for this shape, but I think it may be an important concept.

I have been calling it the dogleg keima. :) It is not a new shape, but I also have the sense that the bots like it better than humans have before the AI era.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
hakuseki
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Game 8, part 1

Post by hakuseki »

I played black in this game, and lost about 11 points in mistakes by move 50.

Game 8, position 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Which corner is more urgent?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , 5 . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Here's the game start. Both players have approached each others' 3-4 points. I thought about the Leela Zero Opening Gospel -- but my recollection was imperfect -- and I played d. After reviewing the Gospel (which doesn't talk about the 5-4 approach explicitly), I think a better generalization would be that a follow-up to an approach is higher priority than a response to an approach, as KataGo seems to also believe here.

The preferred moves are a or b, with e not far behind. I'm not sure why the keima is better than the kosumi in the upper right corner.

Game 8, position 2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc No mistakes in this sequence
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . 6 . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X 4 . . . , . . . a . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
Narrowly considering the joseki in the top left, the side hoshi is the typical follow-up. However, I've gotten the impression that a wider extension is pretty common if it would be a multi-purpose move. For example, if the upper right corner had a black 4-4 stone, I've seen AIs finish this joseki with N17. So I figured a pincer would be correct here.

Also, locally speaking, it seems to me that AIs don't usually play a pincer immediately when approached (unless this would block the formation of a large framework) -- instead favoring something like a kosumi or knight's move extension -- but if the opponent tenukis after this, a pincer is usually the best local follow-up.

Specifically regarding the upper-right corner, :b6: is a joseki position I've been seeing more of lately, but I actually haven't studied this position much. I vaguely recall seeing it in a New York Go Center video (but don't remember which one) -- I believe the video said black can kill white with a. Based on this recollection, my intuition has been that a is the best local follow-up for black, and also probably the best move for white to avoid being killed.

But more recently I've noticed that if white tenukis, KataGo seems to prefer c as a follow-up for black. As for white responding locally, a and b seem to be equally good options.
hakuseki
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Game 8, part 2

Post by hakuseki »

Game 8, position 3
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Responses to white's keima
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . X . a O . . . . |
$$ , . . . c . , X . . |
$$ . . . b . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
White played the slide, and I unfortunately played c, which in this case is significantly worse. KataGo recommends a, but b is nearly as good, and to me seems a bit less adventurous. I'll plan to use either a or b if I reach this position in the future.

Game 8, position 4
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White approaches black's 3-3 stone
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . 5 . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White approached my 3-3 stone, and we played the following sequence. What's next? A long time ago I liked a. But KataGo says b is better, so recently I've been playing b.

Game 8, position 5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Best local continuation
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X a b 3 . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
However, even though I've previously learned to play :b1: instead of a, after white :w2: I unfortunately followed up with a anyway. In fact, KataGo thought I should play tenuki in this case. But assuming I'm tempted to play a local follow-up, :b3: is 2.3 points better than a.

I think this is a pretty cool move. If white wants to block black's connection, it's obvious that a won't work. White's options are b and c.

This position doesn't appear in Josekipedia, so let's look at the main variations here.

Variation 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White threatens black's corner
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . b O . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O 2 . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X 3 . X . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:w3: threatens a severe cut at b, so black must defend. An alternative to :w3: is a; see variation 2.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Continuation
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . 8 4 5 . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 2 3 6 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O X 7 . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . X . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
There are actually many continuations to choose from, but this line for black seems to limit white's options the most.

Variation 2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Transposes to the previous continuation
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O 2 . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X 5 . X . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Variation 3
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 3
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O a . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . 1 X . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If white blocks at :w1:, it would be totally reasonable to tenuki, but there's also this cool tesuji, which again threatens to connect. White may either allow the connection (a) or block (b).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White allows the connection
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O 1 . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O X 3 . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White blocks. :b2: at :w3: is also possible
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O X . . 2 . 4 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
hakuseki
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Game 9, part 1

Post by hakuseki »

This is a game I played on KGS recently. It was a bit dismaying to see that my mistake total in this game was much higher than in my practice games in KaTrain, even though I played significantly more slowly here. I guess playing AI is a bit different than playing human opponents.

I played white in this game, and lost about 22 points to mistakes by move 50.

Game 9, position 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Chinese opening
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 6 . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My opponent played the low Chinese opening. While I've seen this opening many times before, it has never come up in my opening practice, and I am not very familiar with AI opinions on this opening. No (white) mistakes so far.

Game 9, position 2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 3-3 invasion joseki
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ . . X . O b 2 O d . |
$$ , . . . c 3 X 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
A common pincer joseki. Yet not so common in my studies, because KataGo does not pincer very often. Where should white play -- a, b, c, or d?

A long time ago, I thought that a was "the" move. Then I learned that b might be okay too. Later I learned how to respond to c, but never played it myself, as I thought it was a trick move. I've never seen d.

It seems I had it backwards. KataGo recommands d and c about equally, with b being worse, and a being even worse.

I guess d is already well known (just not to me), since it appears in Josekipedia.

(Game 9 to be continued)
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