Endgame problem from a recent game

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Ember
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Endgame problem from a recent game

Post by Ember »

After all these years.. here is my first problem.

It is very rare that a very book-ish position comes up in a real game but it happened to me two days ago in the last game of an online tournament I was playing in. My opponent, who was playing white, had just tenuki-ed from the lower left corner to connect two stones on the right side with 2, clearly thinking that this is the last big move to be played. However, he overlooked some very painful aji in the lower left corner and quickly answered my 3 at 4 (which should've been played at C2).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play and use some aji in the best way possible.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X O O O . . O O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O O . O O O X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X O X X . O X X X X O |
$$ | . . X O X X O . X X X O O . O X X O O |
$$ | . . X O X O . O O . X X X O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . O X X O O O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . O O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X X . . X O . , . . O O O O . . O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . O X X X X O O 2 |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . O O X . X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O . . O X . X . . X O |
$$ | . X X X X X X X O . O X X X . O . . X |
$$ | X X O O O X . X O . . O X . . . . X . |
$$ | X O . , X O X X X O . . O X X O O . . |
$$ | O 4 O . . O O O O . . O . O X . X O . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Of course there are several variations depending on white's answer. I'll put the next two moves from the game in the following spoiler tags. There's a really interesting line here that I missed from being overly confident, so if you've had a try at the first diagram, maybe you want to think about this as well. Can you do it better than me? :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c If white refuses to back down, how can black profit from this? AI says black may live in the corner now (a thought pretty disturbing for my EGF 4-5k mind :D )
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X O O O . . O O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O O . O O O X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X O X X . O X X X X O |
$$ | . . X O X X O . X X X O O . O X X O O |
$$ | . . X O X O . O O . X X X O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . O X X O O O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . O O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X X . . X O . , . . O O O O . . O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . O X X X X O O 2 |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . O O X . X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O . . O X . X . . X O |
$$ | . X X X X X X X O . O X X X . O . . X |
$$ | X X O O O X . X O . . O X . . . . X . |
$$ | X O . , X O X X X O . . O X X O O . . |
$$ | O 4 O 5 6 O O O O . . O . O X . X O . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Endgame problem from a recent game

Post by jlt »

- Wrong variation - deleted.
Last edited by jlt on Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Knotwilg
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Re: Endgame problem from a recent game

Post by Knotwilg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . X O O O . . O O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O O . O O O X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X O X X . O X X X X O |
$$ | . . X O X X O . X X X O O . O X X O O |
$$ | . . X O X O . O O . X X X O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . O X X O O O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . O O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X X . . X O . , . . O O O O . . O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . O X X X X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . O O X . X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O . . O X . X . . X O |
$$ | . X X X X X X X O . O X X X . O . . X |
$$ | X X O O O X . X O . . O X . . . . X . |
$$ | X O 2 , X O X X X O . . O X X O O . . |
$$ | O O O 1 4 O O O O . . O . O X . X O . |
$$ | 5 X 3 . . . . . . . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . X O O O . . O O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O O . O O O X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X O X X . O X X X X O |
$$ | . . X O X X O . X X X O O . O X X O O |
$$ | . . X O X O . O O . X X X O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . O X X O O O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . O O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X X . . X O . , . . O O O O . . O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . O X X X X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . O O X . X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O . . O X . X . . X O |
$$ | . X X X X X X X O . O X X X . O . . X |
$$ | X X O O O X . X O . . O X . . . . X . |
$$ | X O 4 3 X O X X X O . . O X X O O . . |
$$ | O O O 1 2 O O O O . . O . O X . X O . |
$$ | . X 6 5 . . . . . . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
... are my two lines. After checking the hidden OP, indeed there is also:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . X O O O . . O O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O O . O O O X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X O X X . O X X X X O |
$$ | . . X O X X O . X X X O O . O X X O O |
$$ | . . X O X O . O O . X X X O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . O X X O O O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . O O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X X . . X O . , . . O O O O . . O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . O X X X X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . O O X . X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O . . O X . X . . X O |
$$ | . X X X X X X X O . O X X X . O . . X |
$$ | X X O O O X . X O . . O X . . . . X . |
$$ | X O 8 4 B O X X X O . . O X X O O . . |
$$ | O O O 1 2 O O O O . . O . O X . X O . |
$$ | 5 X 7 3 9 . . . . . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:w6: at the marked stone
Last edited by Knotwilg on Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Endgame problem from a recent game

Post by jlt »

Knotwilg: I initially thought about your second variation, however I think White's :w4: would be different:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . X O O O . . O O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O O . O O O X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X O X X . O X X X X O |
$$ | . . X O X X O . X X X O O . O X X O O |
$$ | . . X O X O . O O . X X X O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . O X X O O O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . O O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X X . . X O . , . . O O O O . . O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . O X X X X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . O O X . X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O . . O X . X . . X O |
$$ | . X X X X X X X O . O X X X . O . . X |
$$ | X X O O O X . X O . . O X . . . . X . |
$$ | X O 5 3 X O X X X O . . O X X O O . . |
$$ | O O O 1 2 O O O O . . O . O X . X O . |
$$ | . X 6 4 . . . . . . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Ember
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Re: Endgame problem from a recent game

Post by Ember »

jlt wrote:Knotwilg: I initially thought about your second variation, however I think White's :w4: would be different:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . X O O O . . O O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O O . O O O X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X O X X . O X X X X O |
$$ | . . X O X X O . X X X O O . O X X O O |
$$ | . . X O X O . O O . X X X O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . O X X O O O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . O O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X X . . X O . , . . O O O O . . O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . O X X X X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . O O X . X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O . . O X . X . . X O |
$$ | . X X X X X X X O . O X X X . O . . X |
$$ | X X O O O X . X O . . O X . . . . X . |
$$ | X O 5 3 X O X X X O . . O X X O O . . |
$$ | O O O 1 2 O O O O . . O . O X . X O . |
$$ | . X 6 4 . . . . . . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is actually the seuqnece from the game. However, accoring to AI, black can get a better result.
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Re: Endgame problem from a recent game

Post by Knotwilg »

Check my edit
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Re: Endgame problem from a recent game

Post by Ember »

jlt wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X O O O . . O O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O O . O O O X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X O X X . O X X X X O |
$$ | . . X O X X O . X X X O O . O X X O O |
$$ | . . X O X O . O O . X X X O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . O X X O O O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . O O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X X . . X O . , . . O O O O . . O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . O X X X X O O 2 |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . O O X . X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O . . O X . X . . X O |
$$ | . X X X X X X X O . O X X X . O . . X |
$$ | X X O O O X . X O . . O X . . . . X . |
$$ | X O . 2 . O X X X O . . O X X O O . . |
$$ | O O O . O O O O O . . O . O X . X O . |
$$ | 1 X X O . . . . . . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
But after your 9 (1 here) there comes 2, right?
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Re: Endgame problem from a recent game

Post by Ember »

Knotwilg wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . X O O O . . O O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O O . O O O X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X O X X . O X X X X O |
$$ | . . X O X X O . X X X O O . O X X O O |
$$ | . . X O X O . O O . X X X O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . O X X O O O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . O O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X X . . X O . , . . O O O O . . O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . O X X X X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . O O X . X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O . . O X . X . . X O |
$$ | . X X X X X X X O . O X X X . O . . X |
$$ | X X O O O X . X O . . O X . . . . X . |
$$ | X O 2 , X O X X X O . . O X X O O . . |
$$ | O O O 1 4 O O O O . . O . O X . X O . |
$$ | 5 X 3 . . . . . . . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . X O O O . . O O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O O . O O O X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X O X X . O X X X X O |
$$ | . . X O X X O . X X X O O . O X X O O |
$$ | . . X O X O . O O . X X X O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . O X X O O O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . O O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X X . . X O . , . . O O O O . . O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . O X X X X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . O O X . X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O . . O X . X . . X O |
$$ | . X X X X X X X O . O X X X . O . . X |
$$ | X X O O O X . X O . . O X . . . . X . |
$$ | X O 4 3 X O X X X O . . O X X O O . . |
$$ | O O O 1 2 O O O O . . O . O X . X O . |
$$ | . X 6 5 . . . . . . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
... are my two lines. After checking the hidden OP, indeed there is also:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . X O O O . . O O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O O . O O O X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X O X X . O X X X X O |
$$ | . . X O X X O . X X X O O . O X X O O |
$$ | . . X O X O . O O . X X X O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . O X X O O O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . O O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X X . . X O . , . . O O O O . . O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . O X X X X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . O O X . X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O . . O X . X . . X O |
$$ | . X X X X X X X O . O X X X . O . . X |
$$ | X X O O O X . X O . . O X . . . . X . |
$$ | X O 8 4 B O X X X O . . O X X O O . . |
$$ | O O O 1 2 O O O O . . O . O X . X O . |
$$ | 5 X 7 3 9 . . . . . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:w6: at the marked stone
Yup, the second one is what AI suggests and what I missed. Nice job! :)

Looks like it was too easy. Hope you still had some fun with it.
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Re: Endgame problem from a recent game

Post by Knotwilg »

It's a surprising line indeed. I would definitely not think of it in a game.
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Re: Endgame problem from a recent game

Post by jlt »

@Ember: Yes I realized my answer was wrong after posting it and deleted it.
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Re: Endgame problem from a recent game

Post by Knotwilg »

Which means
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . X O O O . . O O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . O X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O O . O O O X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X O X X . O X X X X O |
$$ | . . X O X X O . X X X O O . O X X O O |
$$ | . . X O X O . O O . X X X O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . O X X O O O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X X O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . O O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X X . . X O . , . . O O O O . . O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . O X X X X O O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . O O X . X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O . . O X . X . . X O |
$$ | . X X X X X X X O . O X X X . O . . X |
$$ | X X O O O X . X O . . O X . . . . X . |
$$ | X O 3 5 X O X X X O . . O X X O O . . |
$$ | O O O 1 4 O O O O . . O . O X . X O . |
$$ | . X 6 2 . . . . . . . . O O X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Not that the whole thing mattered for the end result, I think.
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Re: Endgame problem from a recent game

Post by Ember »

Knotwilg wrote: Not that the whole thing mattered for the end result, I think.
Yes, that's right, it made no difference to the final result. But as someone who during games often feels like a blind person with a wooden stick in a swamp, I like to poke at stuff with my stick when I find something of interest. :)
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