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 Post subject: Re: Follow the wise old men - and solve problems faster
Post #21 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:21 am 
Oza

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What I mean is, similar to a lot of games, hearing a pro give a snapshot of their thinking as their playing can often open people's eye to "how the game is supposed to be approached" and hearing your thinking refuted live is helpful. You're not necessarily improving in terms of mechanical skills in the sense of a games in general but something closer to how higher level thinking should be shaped. You're not going to become strong just by doing this but it offers an excellent chance to catch some misconnections about the game that you may have picked up along the way or introduce you to new ways to apply what you've been learning. It has to be part of a bigger toolbox, but there's definitely value to this *alongside* kifu and commented game collections.

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Post #22 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:31 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
Visualisation was never a problem but compared to the common way a solution to a tsuemgo is shown I needed a lot more time.


This sentence leads me to infer that you are using visualisation in a different way from me.

Let's imagine you are walking to a new destination - a church on yon side of a brae. But you can see the spires of two churches. You have to choose and you don't want to get lost.

[...]

I wish to stress: the coordinates themselves are not an issue. They are just a symbolic way of representing a sequence of steps in time. Variation diagrams represent sequences in space, which is confusing in itself but is also heinous if their apparent convenience tempts us into not spending the time to learn the steps. How many of us can learn to dance by looking at pictures of dance steps. You have to tread the light fantastic.


Hm, I don't know if I truly understood your "paths to churches"-metaphor. But I guess within your metaphor my (obviously bad) reading approach is best described as running towards the spire I see first, neither looking at terrain nor checking probabilities. And then I do what Bill Spight wrote Terence Resese calls dithering. But I also have not really any ambition, motivation nor interest in improving my go skill anymore. I'm only here for the show.

But actually my point was that I don't see any benefit on the learning effect when solutions to problems are presented as coordinates. As someone not used to dividing up the board in letters and numbers (or numbers and numbers) it just takes more time checking moves. I also don't see the time/space-difference between writing coordinates by referencing letters and numbers and showing a board position with the correct moves labelled by numbers. In both examples moves precede one another, are sequential so both have your "time"-attribute? But a board position shown is much easier to understand.

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 Post subject: Re: Follow the wise old men - and solve problems faster
Post #23 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:50 am 
Oza

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SoDesuNe wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
Visualisation was never a problem but compared to the common way a solution to a tsuemgo is shown I needed a lot more time.


This sentence leads me to infer that you are using visualisation in a different way from me.

Let's imagine you are walking to a new destination - a church on yon side of a brae. But you can see the spires of two churches. You have to choose and you don't want to get lost.

[...]

I wish to stress: the coordinates themselves are not an issue. They are just a symbolic way of representing a sequence of steps in time. Variation diagrams represent sequences in space, which is confusing in itself but is also heinous if their apparent convenience tempts us into not spending the time to learn the steps. How many of us can learn to dance by looking at pictures of dance steps. You have to tread the light fantastic.


Hm, I don't know if I truly understood your "paths to churches"-metaphor. But I guess within your metaphor my (obviously bad) reading approach is best described as running towards the spire I see first, neither looking at terrain nor checking probabilities. And then I do what Bill Spight wrote Terence Resese calls dithering. But I also have not really any ambition, motivation nor interest in improving my go skill anymore. I'm only here for the show.

But actually my point was that I don't see any benefit on the learning effect when solutions to problems are presented as coordinates. As someone not used to dividing up the board in letters and numbers (or numbers and numbers) it just takes more time checking moves. I also don't see the time/space-difference between writing coordinates by referencing letters and numbers and showing a board position with the correct moves labelled by numbers. In both examples moves precede one another, are sequential so both have your "time"-attribute? But a board position shown is much easier to understand.


I read it as thinking along the same lines as: Reading a list of the declensions of a noun or tenses of a verb and writing out those declensions in context as part of a correct sentence. The latter takes much longer but is probably better for recall, understanding and just developing a general sense of the language. There is value to be had in language learning by actively revising instead of passively revising material some of the time. It's an inefficient way to always revise though.

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 Post subject: Re: Follow the wise old men - and solve problems faster
Post #24 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:32 pm 
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Still not sure how this translates to the tsumego shown and how it advocates presenting a solution in form of coordinates. Disregarding for a moment a more proper way to attempt the tsumego, every way will involve reading to various degrees. At the end of your reading you will check the solution.

When I understand it correctly, the coordinates-form will need more engagement from me and thus should be more effective learning-wise?

But the flaw in that is that it only needs more engagement (and time) due to me being unfamiliar with the form. When I'm fluid in translating intersections to coordinates I will likely need the same time checking the solution compared to it being presented in the (now) usual way. The question is now whether the time needed to learn the coordinates for 361 intersections by heart has any impact on my go skill?

My take is, it doesn't.

In my earlier post I referenced the way chess players store the answer to problems in their head: They instinctively translate their sequence into coordinates because that's what they have to do in chess to check the answer. But this translation of moves into coordinates is anything but effortful. It's like remembering multiplication tables. I don't calculate 9*9, I know it's 81. No effort needed.

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Post #25 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:59 pm 
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How I thought about is this, what is different? My first thought was that perhaps this is similar to looking at a kifu in a book and playing out that kifu on a board. My feeling is that I get more from doing the latter, perhaps I am naturally giving more thought to the move by physically placing it. With having to see via co-ordinates the answer instead of seeing it laid out in a diagram I think about the difference between holding a problem in mind and solving it without visual aids versus solving a problem while looking at it on a board or screen. The former generally is more difficult than the latter for most people I've spoken to about this suggesting it's working more or different areas of the mind than the latter. Finally I thought about laying problems out on a board before trying to solve them. I think this is good, if time consuming, but there is perhaps a chance to engrain more sense of shape here? I don't know.

In all these I don't think that they're equivalent even though they are effectively doing the same thing. Where I feel there's something to the co-ordinate system approach is not with very difficult problems but problems that are reasonable for the player as they add a little more difficulty to seeing the solution but also give more opportunity for training reading by in the mind's eye with a change of context from searching to verifying. I think there is value in finding and fixing the image of the solved position in your mind as opposed to seeing it akin to real-game situations where you are always working in this mental view of the game. I'm deeply sceptical of the value of this however when the problems are difficult for the player, I think at that stage they need to be fed the solution/tesuji/etc rather than train their ability to visualise it. I also think that there's value in drilling many easy problems quickly as a form of light reading workout to verify your fast reading is accurate for simpler shapes and the coordinate system is less useful here, though the solutions are only hopefully very rarely useful also.

Maybe my take's all kinds of wrong here though.

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Post #26 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:00 pm 
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I sometimes find that the diagram with the final position is disturbing because it's hard to visualize an intermediate position, i.e. it's harder to mentally remove stones from the final position than to add them from the initial position.

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Post #27 Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:36 pm 
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jlt wrote:
I sometimes find that the diagram with the final position is disturbing because it's hard to visualize an intermediate position, i.e. it's harder to mentally remove stones from the final position than to add them from the initial position.


I share that sentiment. If I need to go back to the problem after looking at the solution diagram, I go back to the problem diagram, 100%. Taking away 2 stones is a lot more confusing than adding 6.

Boidhre wrote:
I was not for a second suggesting it wasn't worthwhile studying older games or that only go post-AlphaGo is worth having! What I was getting at is that this is a *very* digestible format for the modern age and being able to hear a pro comment on the game as they play it live is something new and very welcome. It also gives people an excellent opportunity to play "where would I play here?" and get instant feedback on it. Which I think is a very good way of actively engaging in watching stronger players play.


Oh, I misunderstood you then. Yeah I agree. Watching pro's play won't make you a better player, but it'll help staying engaged and it might reinforce some general principles. :)

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Post #28 Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:15 pm 
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Ian Butler wrote:
Yeah I agree. Watching pro's play won't make you a better player, but it'll help staying engaged and it might reinforce some general principles. :)


Oh I think you can become a better player by watching strong players play for certain. Especially if you're watching actively and thinking where you'd play next etc.


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Post #29 Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:30 pm 
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But actually my point was that I don't see any benefit on the learning effect when solutions to problems are presented as coordinates. As someone not used to dividing up the board in letters and numbers (or numbers and numbers) it just takes more time checking moves. I also don't see the time/space-difference between writing coordinates by referencing letters and numbers and showing a board position with the correct moves labelled by numbers. In both examples moves precede one another, are sequential so both have your "time"-attribute? But a board position shown is much easier to understand.


Several points emerge from this.

1. You don't need to divide up the board into coordinates. The book editor can do that for you - see below.

2. When you are seeing a board position with all the moves on it together - the typical variation diagram - there is an implied sequence (1, 2, 4, 5...) but you are seeing it, at a single moment in space. You are also seeing the garbage left my captured stones. You are not seeing the move order in any meaningful sense. You only see it as a sequence if you play it out on a board so that each move (not just a single diagram) gets its own moment in time.

A typical situation is that you are reading a tsumego book on a train. You probably do not have a board and stones, but let's assume you do. You plonk down a dozen stones. Purely mechanical, but better than nothing. So far so good. You then have to remove them, but probably end up picking up too few or too many stones and have to waste time reconstructing the original position. This builds up resentment or other negative feelings which chip away at your motivation to do tsumego in the first place.

You may instead be using a smart phone. You could click through the moves on an app, but experience shows we all get click happy and the procedure ends up as a speed exercise for the thumb. Again, you also have to go through the negative and time-consuming process of unwinding the sequence.

You could watch a video and let somebody else do the work for you. That's filling in time, not using. In any case, while the demonstrator is picking up played stones and reconstructing the position, you will be switching off and thinking about what you'll have for lunch or "did I really turn the tap off?"

Or you could put in a bit of "effortful practice". Since this is a euphemism for "hard work" it's not a pleasant topic on the face of it. But if you try it and stick with it, various benefits accrue that either do not occur with the above methods, or which may occur but much more slowly and patchily. Effortful practice in his case means visualising the moves by following a prompt. The prompt may be via coordinates on the side of the diagram, or letters on the diagram, and/or by the use of words. The use of words is especially useful when you a reviewing a problem (e.g. atari, connects, hane underneath, nobi to extend liberties....). With any of these methods you are not just solving the problem but you are also training your mind, and there is no need for equipment and no need to unwind back to the original position - so, no negative feedback.

3. "But a board position shown is much easier to understand." Only sometimes, and more importantly understanding is not the aim of the exercise. The aim is internalising the solution so that it becomes a tool in your tool chest, and one that you actually know how to use.

Examples:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O X O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . X O O O X . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


A problem by Hashimoto Utaro. You may care to note that it is called Soma 相馬 by Hashimoto and is one of a trio of problems called Iwaki, Soma and Miharu, these being three villages mentioned by Basho on his journey on the Narrow Road to the Far North. There he saw Shadow Pond, so called because it was reputed to reflect an exact image. But when Basho was there it was cloudy day and there was no reflection of anything but grey skies. His disappointment matched the scene. Does the tsumego problem represent the pond. Will I end up looking at grey skies? All waffle of a kind, but making such associations is a useful and enjoyable part of effortful practice. You are both more likely to pursue the problem and to remember it later.

The solution in the book (though actually without coordinates there buy I don't know how to turn them off here):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . 4 1 5 O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O X O 3 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X 2 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . X O O O X . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Grey skies or sharp image? Do you understand? Do you see? Like Basho, you are ona journey to the far north - you have jo go board and cell reception is awful.

The solution if you use coordinates and visualisation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O X O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . X O O O X . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Black D19, White D17, Black F18, White C19, Black E19.

Better, if you use words as well: Black placement D19, White cuts D17, Black throws in at F18, White prevents Rooster on One Leg with C19, Black captures with E19 and makes a false eye. (Hashimoto doesn't go this far but he does add a touch of associational humour which helps the memory; he ends his answer with the haiku-style phrase: Kanashii kana, kakeme desu - Oh woe is me, the eye is false!)

To reinforce my claim that seeing a single picture is deceptive, or even useless, consider the following. (I'm using a discipline that most go players won't be familiar with, to ensure assumed knowledge does not get in the way of the point.)

Attachment:
BalletPortdeBras.jpg
BalletPortdeBras.jpg [ 16.18 KiB | Viewed 10299 times ]


The typical presentation in a go book would actually be only pictures 1 (Figure 1 in go) and 4 (Variation 1). But as a concession, if you really do believe variation diagrams show sequences clearly, I present a sequence here. What is going on?

it's actually very simple - a standard port de bras exercise usually done at the end of a lesson, and any dancer would recognise it instantly. It has been internalised and she can do it easily. In fact you can do it easily, once shown - but from the diagram? There is also no need to understand it. You just need to do it. Go's not much different. It just feels different because those pesky numbers create an illusion of meaning. Conjurers call it misdirection.

There is one other point that needs addressing. People often say: that's OK for simple positions, but it doesn't work when there's more than one variation. If you are one of these nay sayers, your everyday experience proves you wrong, I'll bet.

Think of a variation diagram as a picture of the destination. Now a destination doesn't have much relevance without a journey. What I am proposing is that you choose a destination - you don't need a picture of it - then you plan the journey. If you make the journey many times you will probably want to work out an efficient way to get there.

Let's say I want to drive from London to Edinburgh. A very long trip - over 400 miles. I have chosen my destination. I don't need a picture postcard. I've been there before. I therefore also don't need a map. Still, because it's a very long trip there are many variables. In go terms, I look at the the surrounding position and the stage of the game - what time of day (or night) will I be travelling, what time do I need to be there, what's the weather forecast, is my car in good nick and so on. Once I've got that kind of stuff sorted, I can think about the actual journey/ Do I need a tesuji - e.g. start off at 3 in the morning to beat the traffic. Do I take the straight M1 with all its traffic or the much quieter A1 with all its twisty roads and fewer service stations. Do I take the quicker route across the mountains - or will there be snow and ice there - or do I take the coastal route. Or shall I go west first then whizz up to Glasgow and approach Edinburgh from a different angle. Maybe depends on where the hotel is. And so on and so forth.

My point is that we all do this sort of thing all the time without hard thinking for familiar journeys. We make choices, we look at many variations (routes), we take account of strategy (weather) and tactics (location of petrol stations). We solve the tsumetravel problem easily, quickly, efficiently.

Now if I wanted to go to Pontyprydd instead, for me that would be a different kettle of fish. Not only do I not know how to get there, I don't even know where it is - except that it's (I assume) in Wales somewhere. In that case I will need a map. I might well find pictures useful - is it in mountains, for example? I can't really make any assessment about which route is best, and will have to do a fair bit of analysis (reading), and I may even decide I want to avoid the worst route rather than find the best one.

Again this is an experience we are all familiar with.

And I'll bet again that everybody does what I do if I have to go to Pontyprydd again. I'll try to skip the map and the pictures, maybe experiment with a possibly faster or safer route, and so on, all with the explicit goal of eventually reducing that journey to the same kind of travel experience as the trip to Edinburgh.

It doesn't take much digging to realise that go problems can be reduced to the same sort of journey + destination process. But how may people do that? Those who sit on a train with a standard tsumego book may feel they are travelling, but that's just because they are being pulled by a locomotive. They are not driving, even in the book. They are getting barely anything out of the book. In the book they are just turning from picture to picture. If they sat with a map and followed their train journey on that, would they feel they were getting anything out of it? If no, then why should they expect to get anything out of the picture-postcard kind of tsumego book?

It's very easy to scoff at this in some solipsistic way and say, "Well, I don't do that sort of thing!" Really? Next time you are on a plane, notice how many passengers (yourself, too, maybe?) sit gazing catatonically at the route map on your seat tv screen. (I own up to doing it. I fool myself by pretending I'm improving my geography.)

Another problem is a kind of being wise before the event. Telling your self that every journey begins with the first step can make you feel wise, which can make you feel you've understood the problem, therefore you've solved the problem, therefore you can go and do something else. You skate over the real problem - that fact that you haven't made any steps after the first one and so never reach your destination.

In short, the journey (the work, the effortful practice) is that matters most in making progress. And the fact that that is bleeding obvious never seems to make a blind bit of difference. Look at the constant drip, drip, drip of people asking on forums (not just go) for the best way to do this or the best way to study that. What they are really saying is, "I know you are supposed to work hard at this, but what's the best way to avoid actual work?" And they only listen to advice that comes without that rude four-letter word.

My advice is to substitute the rude word for a nice one: a journey. Going to the Far North, well away from normal temptations and distractions, might be the ideal, but even short journeys can show you new things you never suspected were there.

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Post #30 Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:23 pm 
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How about this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . O X X . .
$$ | O O O X O . O X . .
$$ | O X X . O . O X . .
$$ | X . . X O O O X . ,
$$ | . X . X X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


(BTW, John, to remove coordinates remove the c in the title line.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Goal
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . O . X . X X . .
$$ | O O O . O X O X . .
$$ | O X X O O . O X . .
$$ | X . . X O O O X . ,
$$ | . X . X X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]



Edit:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Failure
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . X . O . O X X . .
$$ | O O O . O X O X . .
$$ | O X X O O . O X . .
$$ | X . . X O O O X . ,
$$ | . X . X X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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Post #31 Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:11 pm 
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Quote:
A typical situation is that you are reading a tsumego book on a train. You probably do not have a board and stones, but let's assume you do. You plonk down a dozen stones. Purely mechanical, but better than nothing. So far so good. You then have to remove them, but probably end up picking up too few or too many stones and have to waste time reconstructing the original position. This builds up resentment or other negative feelings which chip away at your motivation to do tsumego in the first place.

You may instead be using a smart phone. You could click through the moves on an app, but experience shows we all get click happy and the procedure ends up as a speed exercise for the thumb. Again, you also have to go through the negative and time-consuming process of unwinding the sequence.

You could watch a video and let somebody else do the work for you. That's filling in time, not using. In any case, while the demonstrator is picking up played stones and reconstructing the position, you will be switching off and thinking about what you'll have for lunch or "did I really turn the tap off?"

Or you could put in a bit of "effortful practice".

This argument seems to be: assume that all alternative methods eschew effortful practice, assume the use of arcane coordinates does involve effortful practice. Voila! We only learn via the coordinate method. The fly in the ointment is that we need to fill in the pictures with some real actors. Clearly the person on the train is someone like me. Let's call the keener with the coordinate book "Ian". I am sure you can already see the problem. Hand the coordinate book too Ol' EZ and what happens? Right! It flies through the air and lands neatly on the giant, "unread" pile. Meanwhile sit Ian down in front of the Go board and what happens? Right again! Beads of sweat form on his brow, his jaw clenches until his teeth hurt as he stuffs new insight after new insight into his brain.

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Post #32 Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:32 pm 
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Interesting problem. I had read the sequence of the solution but thought that it failed because of a proverb.

https://senseis.xmp.net/?CaptureThreeToGetAnEye


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Post #33 Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:38 am 
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jlt wrote:
Interesting problem. I had read the sequence of the solution but thought that it failed because of a proverb.

https://senseis.xmp.net/?CaptureThreeToGetAnEye


I suspect, particularly as the text makes a big deal about the eye being false, that Hashimoto constructed the problem to show how such an eye could be a false eye. :)

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Post #34 Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:07 am 
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I'm unconvinced I'd be able to properly read lettered coordinates. I don't count my own alphabet, much less a Goban's (without 'I', I assume). OTOH, paired with explanations (ie, "keima at hoshi 10-4") I might follow a numbered (even in kanji) board with not much of a hiccup, I believe. "Algebraic" systems a la chess have always confused me.

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Post #35 Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:06 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
But actually my point was that I don't see any benefit on the learning effect when solutions to problems are presented as coordinates. As someone not used to dividing up the board in letters and numbers (or numbers and numbers) it just takes more time checking moves. I also don't see the time/space-difference between writing coordinates by referencing letters and numbers and showing a board position with the correct moves labelled by numbers. In both examples moves precede one another, are sequential so both have your "time"-attribute? But a board position shown is much easier to understand.


Several points emerge from this.

1. You don't need to divide up the board into coordinates. The book editor can do that for you - see below.

2. When you are seeing a board position with all the moves on it together - the typical variation diagram - there is an implied sequence (1, 2, 4, 5...) but you are seeing it, at a single moment in space. You are also seeing the garbage left my captured stones. You are not seeing the move order in any meaningful sense. You only see it as a sequence if you play it out on a board so that each move (not just a single diagram) gets its own moment in time.


I'm still sceptical that just by delaying to show the full solution you accomplish greater learning effect.

Firstly, you - likely - read a solution already (by attempting to solve the problem) and need simple feedback on your attempt. Delaying that feedback is not beneficial according to conventional "deliberate practice"-theory. Secondly, having to backtrack to the problem diagram everytime you check a "written move" does not add anything experience-wise, does it? You already know your solution, so if you're right you will just get feedback - only later. If you're wrong, you have to go at it again anyhow - but possibly you again needed longer to come to this conclusion.

If I use board and stones and replay the solution on the board, I do add experiences. Most certainly touch and possibly also where I'm at (connecting learning material to a location is an old mnemonic). We could still argue whether this time commitment is efficient, though.

Simply just adding more time never benefits learning. That's why most of us don't write 150 words per minute despite typing multiple hours each day.

On a side note: This time factor is also - in my opinion - the reason for most of the questions to get stronger. Not because people necessarily shy away from the work but because they don't want to waste time working inefficiently. Of course running into roadblocks and experiencing what does not work for you is seldom inefficient learning-wise, only progress-wise.

John Fairbairn wrote:
Effortful practice in his case means visualising the moves by following a prompt.


But I did already visualise them in my attempt to solve the problem, didn't I? Following your own foot steps in the sand (ie checking the solution) makes for a boring journey to already known places ; )

John Fairbairn wrote:
The aim is internalising the solution so that it becomes a tool in your tool chest, and one that you actually know how to use.


No argument here.

John Fairbairn wrote:
To reinforce my claim that seeing a single picture is deceptive, or even useless, consider the following. (I'm using a discipline that most go players won't be familiar with, to ensure assumed knowledge does not get in the way of the point.)

Attachment:
BalletPortdeBras.jpg


The typical presentation in a go book would actually be only pictures 1 (Figure 1 in go) and 4 (Variation 1). But as a concession, if you really do believe variation diagrams show sequences clearly, I present a sequence here. What is going on?


Not sure about this comparison. Your picture shows body movements which on one hand go beyond the flat surface they're imprinted on and - more importantly - on the other hand it skips a lot of inbetween movements. A go diagram does neither. A go diagram - so to say - delivers (locally) perfect information, befitting the game.

A counter-point: The Feynman diagram. Invented primarily to offer a simple visualisation of the complex and difficult to understand interaction of subatomic particles which before had to be written as complex and difficult to understand formulas. The point being: Simple visualisation of a complex matter is an asset, not a cheat.

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 Post subject: Re: Follow the wise old men - and solve problems faster
Post #36 Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:12 pm 
Oza

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Quote:
But I did already visualise them in my attempt to solve the problem, didn't I? Following your own foot steps in the sand (ie checking the solution) makes for a boring journey to already known places ; )


I won't answer every point (in various posts) - sometimes because I don't really have an answer. As usual, I'm trying to provoke a discussion, and it paid off this time because Feynman diagrams were new to me and this looks like something worth reading up. Thank you.

As to the point above, I think we are going round in circles a bit because visualisation seems to mean different things to different people here. No-one has picked up on my mention of suji, so I already suspected that was going to be a problem. For similar reasons, the lack of mention of the stones and board tells me something is amiss.

I'll try one last tack. What I am arguing for is that, to learn something from doing tactical problems, the most efficient kind of practice is effortful and rich in associations. Trying to solve a problem in your head is part of the effort, I agree, but you can add to the effort by playing the moves out on a board. This gives you the flow (suji) of the stones and creates associations. I believe that in real life, very few people do play over variations on a board. They just look at the solution diagram as confirmation they got the solution. They give themselves a pat on the back and move on to the next problem. Then they wonder why they don't seem to improve much. I believe that this standard method fails because of lack of reinforcement and associations. How you do that reinforcement is a matter of personal preference, but however you do it, I think it's got to be done. My suggestion for using coordinates or board letters definitely does not mean trying to visualise the points indicated in your head. I know that's hard and messy. That is precisely my point, so you don't have to keep telling me. What I'm assuming is that, because it's so messy and hard, you will actually get out a real board and play the solution out on the board - to absorb the flow, to make the associations.

The exact method you adopt can be totally different from what I'm proposing but I don't see that efficient learning can be achieved unless your choice of method guarantees extra such as associations and flow. Mere repetition of problems that you've solved before but can't now remember is even more boring than - and actually more similar to -tracing your own steps in the sand.

Everyone here has had to study something by means of books. The most basic way is to read the words in the book. Some people don't even get that far. They just look at the pictures, or look for a comic version of the book. Let's not be snobbish about words. Let's assume the word-readers and the picture-readers get something equal out of the book. I would argue that in either case, though, they don't get very much. They might be able to answers questions in a class test, but probably more on the basis of memory than understanding.

Reading the book's words and looking at the pictures will add someth9ng - but not very much, I suggest. (There is a worse approach, mind you, one I'm guilty of, and that is buying a book and assuming that's job done - the first step is the hardest step, and all that jazz.)

What really allows to you start understanding the book and gleaning whatever may be useful in that book is engaging with it. There is no standard way, perhaps, but people will do things like discuss the book with other people, make notes in the margin, re-read or even memorise sections, try to write the book's ideas in their own words, get sidelights by reading similar books or criticisms, watch a film of the book, and so on and so forth.

All of these methods will add something further to your knowledge, but some methods are better than others. For example, scribbling in the margin is often close to useless, whereas scribbling the book's ideas in your own words - self-testing, in other words - tends to pay off big time. Your internalise the knowledge.

What I see in go is that most people who bother to buy books just look at the pictures. They don't really engage with the book. They even make it impossible to engage properly with the book - they read it on the train or they do five minutes a day. Or they pass the problem on to other people and ask then how to solve tsumego problems, get conflicting answers, and then give up, blaming the other people.

That's what I'm trying to overcome.

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 Post subject: Re: Follow the wise old men - and solve problems faster
Post #37 Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:45 pm 
Gosei

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There are many different types of problems. Consider two cases: problems where the position might often actually occur in a real game and problems where the position is quite contrived and probably would rarely if ever occur in a real game. There are things to be learned from each of these types. When the problem could arise in a game thinking about how it might have occurred, i.e. what sequence of moves would result in the shape. This flow would show how to recognize situations that could cause the problem shape. In the case of a problem that could not occur in an actual game, studying it would challenge read-by-move reading and how to take an unusual shape and push it into something recognizable.

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Post #38 Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:52 pm 
Oza

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To briefly add on to that, for me personally, I've found real game style tesuji problems to be where the suji is really important for me interalise the pattern and where playing problems out on a board seemed very helpful. In artificial problems it's far less about this and more about shape recognition training and I didn't feel they were doing more by playing them out. I think partially because those real game problems have a natural flow to the stones.

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Post #39 Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:41 am 
Honinbo

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An unrealistic problem. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ----------------
$$ | . . . O X . .
$$ | B . . O X . .
$$ | O O O O X . .
$$ | X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]


I found this position through iterative deepening search on the 3x2 eye. Even as a rank beginner I never would have considered playing :bc: in the eye. ;) For that reason I learned something about that eye, but something that I strongly doubt has any practical significance. Still, I was pleasantly surprised. :)

A player who has never seen the correct play by Black in that corner, can learn the same lesson from the main failure variation of the problem, which transposes to the main variation for correct play in the empty eye. Also, a player who has never heard of an approach ko can learn that they exist. :)

Here is another problem that arose from an iterative deepening exercise. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Does :w1: live?
$$ ----------------
$$ | 1 . . . O X . .
$$ | . . . . O X . .
$$ | O O O O O X . .
$$ | X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]


:w1:? :shock: Never in a million years. :lol: Still, this position provides a nice reading problem from which even an SDK might learn a thing or two of practical value. :)

Edit: If Black plays first White can make independent life, something which may not be all that obvious. :)

It is such lessons, I think, that provide the main value of problems. OC, the composer of the problem has one or more lessons in mind. :) But what about the value of reading practice?

Sakata says that reading consists of the choice of candidate plays, the calculation of variations, and the evaluation of the results of the search. Now, problems have well defined goals, so there is little to learn about the evaluation of the problem itself. However, the problem position or intermediate positions may help to evaluate similar positions in real games. The lessons certainly help in the choice of candidate plays. There are plays which accomplish or threaten to accomplish certain objectives, or subgoals of the search, and apply to real game situations. Also, one may learn heuristics for choosing candidate plays. As for the calculation of variations, research in chess (by deGroot, I think) did not find any differences in that skill between amateurs and masters in unfamiliar positions. However, I think that Kotov's experience indicates that it is possible to improve in that skill. Whatever one may think of Kotov's method, it does provide discipline in search which I think is beneficial. Not that it is the best method, but without discipline it is easy to get lost and confused. I do not think, however, that simply doing problems does much to develop such discipline.

Is doing problems the best way of learning these lessons? I kind of doubt it, especially at the low levels of skill. There I think it's better to teach the lessons first and then use problems to test the understanding and application of those lessons and to overlearn them. As for the value of effort, I do think that it is important to develop discipline, but, as Gurdieff said, why spend a lot of time and effort learning how to do something if you can take a pill that allows you to do the same thing? ;)

I certainly disagree with the idea that the solution does not matter. After all, the solution is based upon the learnings which the composer put into the problem (or discovered in the process of composition).

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Last edited by Bill Spight on Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Follow the wise old men - and solve problems faster
Post #40 Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:20 am 
Lives with ko

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The rascal guru Gurdjieff is an unexpected reference from Bill. I haven't read any Gurdjieff myself, but thought from what I've heard he emphasised the role of constant effort and awareness.

In this connection, Gurdjieff was an influence on the late entrepreneur Nicholas Saunders who did much to revitalise the Covent Garden area of London and the whole foods marketplace in the '70s:

Quote:
He (Nicholas Saunders) moved into an old warehouse in the very derelict Neal's Yard in Covent Garden and opened downstairs the first wholefood warehouse in London that sold medium bulk to the public. He was proud that their turnover per square foot exceeded Sainsbury's. The most popular items sold there led him to found a series of other shops in the Yard, ranging from the Neal's Yard Coffee House and Neal's Yard Bakery to the Neal's Yard Dairy and the Neal's Yard Apothecary. He created over 100 jobs without government aid of any kind and without any of the businesses failing. He had a belief derived from a Gurdjieff group he once belonged to, that fulfillment comes from work which is demanding, so long as it gives opportunity for variety, learning and responsibility. So rather than have a machine hoist, workers hoisted bags of grains and beans up to the first floor packing room by jumping out of the window holding the pulley rope. There was only one minor accident in 10,000 jumps.


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