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 Post subject: David (9 kyu) vs Goliath (1 dan)
Post #1 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:25 am 
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A new year, another 365 days to play and learn Go.
To start the year, I had the fortune of finding a game against an OGS 1-dan player. I'm not gonna pass up an opportunity to play against such a strong opponent and we even reviewed a little bit.
I tried to play my A-game, obviously, and I think I might be able to learn a lot from the mistakes I made. So I hope others here will help me point out more learning opportunities!

Biggest mistakes:

:b21: creates two weak groups, or rather sacrifices a stone and gives a big corner for two light stones. not good enough. There's a variation to just live in the corner.
:b27: black can hane. but I couldn't read out the cut if black were to hane. I thought there was big trouble with the P16 stones being short of liberties.
:b29: my shame. I totally misread. I only saw the ladder if white kept playing atari down and I thought I could take the four white stones. Now I don't know why I thought a 1-dan would play that knight's move in that case, but at the moment I was just trying to play the board and I didn't think about these things :lol:
:b47: apparently also can hane. Looked dangerous to me, though, because of white G4 later and potentially a cut.

I think from there it was pretty much lost. Another moment of shame when I played :b63: thinking it was sente only to discover at :b65: that the ladder still wasn't broken. :oops: :oops: So for all my tsumego these last few weeks, here I go misreading the same ladder twice in a game. :lol:

:b95: was the last real bad move probably. threatening the cut here was so insignificant.

Moves I'm proud-ish of. After all, this was a 1-dan, and I didn't cower away. So I'm proud of my playing, too. I used my time very well, played slowly and considered every single move.

:b19: was well considered even when I played :b17: and expected white to split.
:b25: putting pressure on white.
:b61: not taking the obvious atari. Although, come to think of it, the obvious atari is probably better :lol: :lol: but it looked like a cool sente move with a follow up I managed to read out, and that in itself is pretty cool to me. Knowing you're playing a defensive move and knowing you have a follow up so your opponent will have to answer and you can take sente is awesome.
:b71: even though it is probably wrong direction, I like my "fighting" spirit.
:b75: I think the correct shape move.
:b87: at the moment I liked it, but afterwards there was a ko and then I thought: was 87 a mistake because I wasted a ko threat? so probably not the best move after all :D


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 Post subject: Re: David (9 kyu) vs Goliath (1 dan)
Post #2 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:16 am 
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Mistakes?:

:b21: doesn't look like a mistake to me. I think it's quite a good move.
:b27: locally this move makes proper shape, but it feels quite slow to defend black's upper right corner group. It is rock solid already. Black can just play elsewhere.
:b29: indeed this was a fairly big mistake. Before this, the game was still close, but after this ...
:w36: white has a clear lead (about 20 points according to the AI review).

I'm sure your 1d OGS opponent was quite aware of having a comfortable lead now, so from this point onward he doesn't really need to play his best to win. He can just play safely and avoid big fights.

:b47: I have never seen a black hane here. I would always extend here.
:b95: locally I think it's a good idea to repair black's shape and aim at a weakness in white's shape. So I wouldn't call this a mistake.

But it is true that this move does little to fix black's overall problem that the game is already lost (at this point, white is leading by 65 points according to the AI review). Alas, there are no moves to miraculously fix this overall problem.

Good moves?:

:b19: black has many other options in this area. I would probably play differently, but your move is probably fine as well. Either way, it is more important how you follow it up.
:b25: it puts pressure on white, but when you cannot seal white in, white escaping will also weaken your unsettled P10 group and it's not so clear to me how black gains points by this direct attack. If I were black, I would continue in the lower right instead and keep the game calm.

:b75: this is a big move, but white already has a huge lead (40 points according to the AI review), so it is a bit moot at this point.
:b87: yes it could be wasting a ko threat, but the bigger loss is that it wastes the aji of a sente cut at M14.

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 Post subject: Re: David (9 kyu) vs Goliath (1 dan)
Post #3 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:34 am 
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Thanks so much for your input, gennan. It's interesting, on some points you say the opposite of my opponent in the review, so it's interesting to remember Go is hard, and even (a lot) stronger players can see things very different.
:b21: I liked in the game, mainly because it was the result of much thinking. I considered many moves in the area. In the end I played it because I thought it was much better alternative to going into the 3-3 or attaching on the other side. It's a move I never played before, too, which makes it fun.

Missing the ladder (twice) is ridiculous and probably what made the game too easy on white, which is a shame because I feel I could've put up more of a fight if I hadn't done that. Well, it's not that my reading was wrong, I read out a fairly long sequence successfully, it's just that I missed a better move for my opponent which made the ladder work (keep atari-ing it down doesn't, and that's what I had read out multiple times).

I'm still proud of this game and I'm grateful that you shared your thoughts on it. Especially what you said about black 25 is interesting. At the time this was my exact thought: I don't quite see how i'll profit from this. But I've always been too passive a player and now I thought: any player with some guts would harass this group. But I'll have to learn how to attack and more so how to gain with attacking. When to leave something alone and when not, that's actually the hardest part!

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 Post subject: Re: David (9 kyu) vs Goliath (1 dan)
Post #4 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:07 pm 
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While I think that :b21: was fine, I think :b23: was a (minor) mistake.

I would have extended to P3 instead. And P3 stays quite big and urgent for a long time, although both of you don't play there until :w60:.

I find it quite arduous to make variations on L19, so I won't go into that here. I much prefer https://gokibitz.com/kifu to comment with variations.

I don't think :b25: was a mistake. It does create a bit of a "body" for your unsettled group and it prevents white from connecting underneath with S10 and it is also a vital point of white's unsettled group. So :b25: (P12) is quite an effective attacking move and locally it's probably the best move for black.

My issue with it is the timing. Why does black play in this area at his moment?
The game is still in the opening stage and there is nothing critical going on at the right side at this moment, so there is no reason to rush for P12. Black can just continue playing the opening in other areas of the board. And from an opening point of view, the lower side is the most open area at this moment. So I would like to settle the group in the lower right corner and hopefully approach the lower left corner as well.

To me, P12 feels like a move that black (or white) might play in the transition from opening to middle game.


This post by gennan was liked by: Ian Butler
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 Post subject: Re: David (9 kyu) vs Goliath (1 dan)
Post #5 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:46 pm 
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I think that 21 at Q3, on an otherwise random board, is a mistake. The 3-3 point seems better. ( Just a hunch that I can't prove )
On this particular board, it may be playable because of the black stones at P10 and R10.

If 21 works, it works only because it makes white overconcentrated with no good direction to go. Black is building groups on both sides of the white group: one to the north, one to the south
If black really means what his hand said when he played 21, he MUST eventually take R2. He must maintain the group to the south of white. It is thematic.

To accomplish this, black has to either take R2 now, or play P3 with the intention of playing R2 very soon. Move 23 at P4 is the wrong direction. It makes 21 at Q3 into a bad move.

The important question is whether black has time to play P3, or whether he has to play R2 immediately to prevent white from taking it. My reading - which may have some holes in it - says that white is too thin after playing R2.

IOW, it should go like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 21 to 27
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . O . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . 3 1 2 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by 2 people: gennan, Ian Butler
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 Post subject: Re: David (9 kyu) vs Goliath (1 dan)
Post #6 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:48 pm 
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A few top of the head comments.

:b7: A bit premature. Better to approach the bottom left corner.

:b9: Non-urgent. Approach the bottom left corner.

:b17: Unnecessary. White is slightly overconcentrated in the top right, while Black has a big corner. Black can be satisfied with the top right quadrant and approach the bottom left corner.

:b19: Better, I think to jump to P-06, threatening :w18: and the corner. If now :w20: at O-04, :b21: kosumi at Q-09. KataGo may disagree. ;)

:b21: Interesting play for sabaki. But you are ahead in the bottom right, so maybe the 3-3 is better, to sacrifice :b17:.

:b23: Now I think the hane at Q-07, with the idea of saving :b17: and sacrificing :b21:.

:b25: Good idea. :) Attack while preventing the underneath connection.

:b27: Too solid. The hane looks better.

:b29: You’re right, it’s not good. But I don’t see a local play I like. Time to tenuki? I dunno.

:b35: Very bad. Surely you have to atari at M-14.

:b37: Good. You saw the light. :)

:b39: How about D-05, the AI special. If White pushes through and cuts, go after :w38:. If White crawls, push once and then pincer :w38:.

:b43: Pincer. This play makes it easy for White to sacrifice :w38: and attack the Black stones in the bottom right.

:b49: Aji keshi, I think. In general, don’t play this push unless you plan to cut.

:b55: Nice shape play. :)

:b59: Double atari, I think, to get the most out of the Q-03 stone. Surely White will connect.

:b61: Double atari. Then if White saves the Q-04 stone, capture the Q-06 stone with R-07, cutting off the R-08 stone.

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Everything with love. Stay safe.


This post by Bill Spight was liked by 2 people: gennan, Ian Butler
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