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 Post subject: Re: Chess Cheaters Get Exposed
Post #21 Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:56 am 
Honinbo

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Boidhre wrote:
From what I saw of the score estimators, they were not accurate enough until the very late game for you not to have to use your own counting skills to compensate for it. Maybe score estimators available on go servers are that accurate enough now to not require this in the middle game? I don't know.


Maybe you should suggest to your opponent that they use the score estimator. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Chess Cheaters Get Exposed
Post #22 Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:06 am 
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Yet more on the evolution of values, some recent threads on r/baduk:

https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments ... lt_online/

https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments ... _using_ai/

https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments ... o_with_ai/

Anecdotal side commentary: I forwarded these to a friend who plays go at about 2d and is a high-ranked role gamer (I do not know what that means) as well as chess. He says he has seen growth in the number of accusations of cheating in all of his online gaming experiences.

Just my opinion, of course: There is a new gang of cheaters who use AIs, or other resources, and they've gotten very good at disguising their techniques and delaying their discovery. There are sore losers who will use any excuse to get credit for a win. And there seem to be some vandals who just want to mess with the system simply because they can.

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 Post subject: Re: Chess Cheaters Get Exposed
Post #23 Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:13 am 
Oza

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Bill Spight wrote:
Maybe you should suggest to your opponent that they use the score estimator. :lol:


I remember this coming up with arguments years ago about whether GoGod or similar databases were cheating in correspondence. Outside of whether they were unfair etc, the simple matter was that a kyu player using one blindly was as likely to do more damage to their own win percentage than their opponent's so it's was probably just fine...

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 Post subject: Re: Chess Cheaters Get Exposed
Post #24 Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:24 am 
Oza

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bogiesan wrote:
Yet more on the evolution of values


Specifically in those: there has *long* been debate over what aids are ok in correspondence go and some things like looking up joseki during live games. There's a *very* marked difference between using a joseki dictionary and getting Katago to tell you were to play. Looking up joseki still requires the player to understand what they're doing and the board position etc. Katago doesn't. This seems to be the most common line I've seen drawn in correspondence, similar to a score estimator that is far from perfect, if you still need to do a lot of work yourself it's probably fine.

A side point I've seen re: correspondence that might interest you is whether it's ok to take a board position from a game you're playing, give the AI your opponent's colours and play out sequences against the AI (i.e. do not get the AI to tell you how to play instead it plays the best responses to you). I don't think it's ok because the AI will tenuki and show you aji or big places you didn't see and this is a problem. Even when AI isn't finding your moves for you it can create issues. But separate to this, playing out alternative games against the AI in positions from your games that are fresh in your mind is probably a good way to use one to study if you don't view the games as competitive but as a way to improve (and ideally aren't using the AI to advance your rank far above what is reasonable). That being, saying your "using one to make games study" whilst ranking up to 8d or 9d on Tygem for the first time is probably just a bit suspect. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Chess Cheaters Get Exposed
Post #25 Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:28 am 
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The score estimator of OGS is really useless. It thinks that Black wins by 0.5, while White won by 1.5.

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 Post subject: Re: Chess Cheaters Get Exposed
Post #26 Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:55 am 
Gosei
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Yes, you need to check the points carefully on OGS. Here D13 is marked as a point for Black.

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