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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #261 Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:05 am 
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Were the promotion rules different in the past?


Any comparison of promotions under the old rules (pre-2003, so that includes e.g. Cho and Iyama) is not like comparing even apples and pears. It's more like comparing apples and hot dogs.

In the old Oteai-based system, points were given for each game based on the handicapping (so you scored more if you won as White in no-komi games). If you achieved the requisite number of points over the requisite number of games you were promoted at once. The requisite number of games was quite small. It was 12 for 1 to 3-dan, and you got to choose yourself which span of 12 consecutive games counted. In practice, this meant a short winning streak was all you needed to get from 1-dan to 2-dan. (Iyama scored 21-4 in his first year, but that includes games at 2-dan.) It was fairly common then to get promotion within a year. Sumire would have qualified very quickly under that system.

The reason for the change in 2003 was that the Nihon Ki-in was under extreme financial pressure, and a large reason for that was the pension pot was crippling them. Pensions (and of course contributions from the NK to the pension pot) were based on dan grade. The reforms were therefore designed to make it MUCH harder to get promotions, and so cut the pensions bill significantly.

Sumire could get an early promotion if she tops the money list for her grade, but again the new system slows things down, as she has to wait for the end of the year. On the other hand, she could get to 9-dan from 1-dan at once if she wins a major title.


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #262 Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:06 am 
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I think much better measure would be when she will enter league of major title, or get into 1/16 or 1/32 knockout phase. Imho she have some advantage cuz AI revolution started in her start of career. If she is really a prodigy like Shusaku, it will be obvious pretty soon. Though we also must remember that Jowa was a bit of late bloomer. Fascinating times, pity that covid interferred, but i hope it will be defeated soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #263 Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:26 am 
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Do we have something like a statistic on how many games were played last year? It can't have been bussiness as usual...

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #264 Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:41 am 
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Do we have something like a statistic on how many games were played last year? It can't have been bussiness as usual...


My sense of reading regular reports over the past year and a bit has been that it has been business as usual in Japan, more or less, as regards games played. There has been disruption to the schedules, recourse to the internet and limitations on travel and public commentaries, but, those things apart, the show did go on.

I'm not prepared to count up all the stats for every player, but taking the top row of 18 9-dans (which includes title holders of course), 2019 had 605 games, and 2020 had 553. I think that drop may be explained mainly by a combination of absence from preliminaries at international events and old (and so less prominent) players shielding.

The Chinese had some sort of moratorium, and Korean go has been going backwards as regards sponsorship for some time anyway, so clearly there were probably dips there. I think Taiwan has been fairly stable.

Go in the West of course has been devastated by AI.


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #265 Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:44 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Go in the West of course has been devastated by AI.


I don't know if AI did anything wrong to Go in the West, but Covid certainly did.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #266 Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:35 am 
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She won two games and lost one this week, so here is her update:

March games:
    [1] Defeated Yasufumi Tahara (7p) on Mar 1 in Kiryama 28 prelims.
    [2] Defeated Tamura Chiaki 3p in Female Senko 6 on Mar 10.
    [3] Defeated Tajima Shingo (6p, 2879, #805) in Kisei 46 on Mar 11. Big win, counts for promotion by wins and prize money.
    [4] Defeated Matsubara Taisei (6p, 2722, #980) on March 15 in Kiryama 28 prelims and got promoted to 2p.
    [5] Lost to KOYAMA, Kuya (4p, 24 yrs, 3171, #332) on March 15 in Kiryama 28 prelims.
    [6] Defeated Wang Jing Yi (3p, 35yrs, 2769, #934) on March 18 in last qualifying game for Female Meijin 32, so she has made it to the main tournament.

Here is a summary of all her tournaments (she is out of tournaments with black names). She is still active in tournaments with red names. I decided to flip the convention since one's attention is drawn to colored text:

Majors tournaments (eligible for prize money rule and promotion by wins):
  • Kisei 46 - Defeated Ha Youngil (6p, 35 years old, rating 3040, #530) on Feb 4 in prelims 2. Defeated Tajima Shingo (但馬 慎吾, 6p, 2879, #805) on March 11. Will play Hara Masakazu (原 正和 3p, 23 yrs, 3059, #495) next. See West block 3 in https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/kisei/046.html.
  • Meijin 46 - eliminated Mar 5, 2020. Meijin 47 should have started in Dec 2020. I think it's delayed because they are still playing the Meijin 46 league
  • Honimbo 77 - eliminated on Dec 3, 2020. Honimbo 78 should start around Oct 2021?.
  • Oza 69 - eliminated in Oct 2020. Oza 70 should start in March 2021
  • Tengen 47 - eliminated Apr 2, 2020. Tengen 48 should start in Apr 2021
  • Gosei 47 - will play Rafif Shidqi Fitrah (フィトラRS, 1p, 18 yrs) in first round of qualifying, who just became a pro through the special (easier) qualification path for foreigners. This might be his first game? She's in Tokyo 4.
  • Judan 60 - defeated Minematsu Matsaki (6p, 2698, 57yr old) in first round of qualifying C on Jan 21, 2021. Kansai/Chubu frame 8 https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/jyudan/060.html

Mixed tournaments counting towards promotion by wins:
  • Kiryama 28 - defeated Yasufumi Tahara (7p, 46yrs, 2714, #1000) on Mar 1st and MATSUBARA Taisei (6p, 49yrs, 2772, #948) on Mar 15 but lost to Koyama Kuya (4p, 24 yrs, 3171, #332) that same day. So she is out of Kiryama 28. Kiryama 29 should start Feb 2022.
  • Ryusei 30 - Defeated Araki Issei 4P on June 29, 2020 in final of prelim B. Lost to Nakano Shoya 1p in Prelim A. Ryusei 31 should start in April-Jun 2021?
  • Hiroshima 15 (Young Carp). Eliminated in Nov 2020. Hiroshima 16 should start Sept 2021.
  • Okage (Thanks Cup) 11 - eliminated on Apr 6, 2020 by Xie Yimmin. Okage 12 should start in March 2021
  • SGW Nakajima 3 - did not participate? SGW 4 should start in Aug 2021
  • Globis Cup 8 should have started Jan 2021

Women-only or other tournaments not counting for promotion:
  • Shinjin (King of New Stars) 46 - eliminated in Nov 16, 2020. Shinjin 47 should start in Nov 2021.
  • Okan (Crown) Cup - Not eligible (seems to be for Nagoya branch only).
  • Kansai Go open 1: eliminated in Nov 2020 in the semifinal of class C (this was in main tournament). Kansai Open 2 might start Sept 2021 (but she might not be eligible to play anymore).
  • Wakatake 5: Lost to Hiroki Muramatsu 6p in first round on Nov 29, 2020. Her opponent eventually ended up in 3rd place. It seems to be Kansai only, so she will probably not play in it next year.
  • Female Honimbo 40: Defeated Saeka Iwata 1p in 1st qualifying on Jan 25, 2021. Defeated Takao Mari (髙雄 茉莉, 1p, 19 yrs - became pro in 2019 through special recruiting as well) on Feb 18 to make it to main tournament. Waiting on the main draw lottery now. See Kansai 7 of https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/fhoninbo/040.html
  • Female Meijin 32: defeated Akiko Tsukuda 5p (2741) on Jan 7, 2021 but lost to Ueno Asami in last qualifying game on the same day. Female Meijin 33 should start in Nov 2021?
  • Female Aizu 8: Won 1st qualifying game vs Chiharu Miyamoto 1p on Dec 17. Won 2nd vs Fumiko Sakakibara 6p on Jan 18, 2021. Won 3rd vs Akane Tatsuni (辰己 茜, 3p, 38yrs) on Feb 11. Defeated Wang Jing Yi (王 景怡, 3p, 35yrs, 2769, #934) on March 18 in last qualifying game, so she has made it to the main tournament. See West block 3 of https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/aidu/008.html
  • Female Kisei 24 - Lost in 2nd round of main tournament to Aoki Kikuyo 8p on Oct 26. Kisei 25 should start July 2021.
  • Female Senko/Saikyo 6: Defeated Tamura Chiaki (田村 千明, 3p, 42yrs, 2648, #1029) in 2nd round of qualifying on Mar 10th. She will play Hiromi Mizuno 5p (水野 弘美, 53yrs) next. See West 4 of https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/senko/006.html

My calculations show her results to be as follows:
In 2021: 12-2 (she should be #2-5? in overall 2021 Japanese ranking by wins on gotoeveryone web site, but that site has not been updated with this week's games).
In 2020: 21-17
Overall: 52-28
Promotion to 3p: 0 wins
Go rating: 2940, #702

As a general observation, she seems to win against those with a rating below 2900 (which is the great majority of her opponents). But then tends to lose when she plays against those with rating above 3000. So the 2940 rating seems to be pretty accurate.

Here is her 1p -> 2p promotion record for the last time:
  • Kisei 45: 3 wins
  • Kisei 46: 2 wins (ongoing)
  • Meijin 46: 2 wins
  • Honimbo 76: 3 wins
  • Honimbo 77: 1 win
  • Oza 69: 3 wins
  • Gosei 46: 1 win
  • Judan 59: 3 wins
  • Judan 60: 1 win (ongoing)
  • Ryusei 29: 2 wins
  • Ryusei 30: 1 win
  • Hiroshima 14: 1 win
  • Hiroshima 15: 3 wins
  • Okage 11: 2 wins
  • Kiryama 28: 2 wins

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #267 Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:44 am 
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As a benchmark both for Sumire and of the toughness of the current promotion system, two young players also got promoted this week (March 2021) in Japan. I Ryo took 4 years to get to 2-dan with 30 wins, compared with Sumire's two.

Oda Teppei (24) made 3=dan (40 wins) after 14 years as a pro.

AS a benchmark of a different kind, limited to women, Sumire was 1-dan at age 10-0 (years, months) and 2-dan at 12-0. Fujisawa Rina was pro at 11-6 and 2-dan at 15-0. Xie Yimin was pro at 14-4 and 2-dan at 15-1 and Ueno Asami was pro at 14-5 and 2-dan at 16-2. All three have done well against men and 9-dans. All three wiil be in the upcoming Senko Cup.

And talking of the women, the Amateur Women's Championship, now in its 63rd (savour that: 63rd) year, resumed this month after last year's hiatus because of the pandemic. They even played face-to-face, although masked and with a perspex screen briefing the board. The twenty-somethings now dominate. The last 16 had 3-teens, 6 20-somethings, 1 30-something and the rest ladies of a certain age. Youngster Uchida Yuri won at her second attempt. But it's serious stuff now for such amateurs. She is a pupil of Iwata Hajime 9-dan, and is the runner up, the somewhat older Murase Natsu.


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #268 Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:17 am 
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Hi.

Senko Cup https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/special/senkocup/index.html is in progress.
There is a smaller events for teenager players (although, "teenagers"...). As (I) expected, the final is Sumire vs. Risa.
And following the recent promotion discussion, she is the only 2p. The other players are all 1p, and some have been pro for some time.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #269 Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:05 am 
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Sumire has just won her first tournament. It was the Women's Teenage Pro Tournament in which eight Japanese pros took part. Sumire was obviously the youngest (and by far the smnallest). Less obviously, she was also the highest graded, at 2-dan! She beat Ueno Risa in the final and so took home half a million yen. The real significance of that may be that, if it counts, it gives her a big leg up in the race to get to 3-dan based on prize money.

The "if it counts" caveat is important because this was a special one-off event to mark the parallel Senko Cup and is officially described as "unofficial". But it's not clear to me whether prize-money promotions are governed by the same rules as numbers of wins. Perhaps the fact that the Nihon Ki-in went out of its way to stress the word "unofficial" tells us enough.

Another parallel event was a World Amateur Women's Strongest Tournament which was won by a 15-year-old from Vietnam. I can only go by the names as given in Japanese. but her name is something like Ha Kwanan. This event featured no-one from Japan, China or Korea, and three of the eight players were from Europe (Germany, France and Russia, with one from America. The rest were from other Asian countries, the Thai representative being Ha's co-finalist.

Elsewhere among the women, Suzuki Ayumi failed at the last hurdle to reach the main part of the Oza, but at least gave us a reminder that the distaff side has long cast aside the spindle and is banging on the door. Amateurs are likewise increasingly making their voices heard in the few tournaments that allow theme entry.

In that connection, it may be worth noting the winner of the Senko Cup itself was China's Yu Zhiying 6-dan. You may recall that Yu was the first woman to win a mixed-gender pro event in China - the Xinren Wang in 2014. For winning the Senko she took home ten times as much as Sumire: 5 million yen. She can now afford a cup of coffee in Sweden!

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #270 Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:46 am 
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The "World Amateur Women's strongest Tournament" you are talking about is this: http://weiqi.org.my/tournament/senkocup ... ament2021/

The winner is Quynh Anh Ha (the family name is Ha).

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #271 Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:17 pm 
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In a battle of stars Nakamura Sumire played Yoshihara Yukari 6-dan (née Umezawa) in first round of Women's Honinbo. Yukari, three times former Women's Kisei is famous for her participation in Hikaru no Go.

The Nihon Kiin Channel streamed the game with live comments, and you can also see the media invasion at the end.

https://youtu.be/k3LvpxciK8I

Result
Sumire won by 7.5

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #272 Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:17 pm 
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I watched the game, the same way I watch other games.

But that invasion at the end, is not usual at all. Usually, yes, there are some photographers, maybe some questions, etc. It depends on the importance of the event, ofcourse. It is not the same to decide the challenger for a title than a regular prelim game.

But in this case, it was too much, to my understanding. During the game, you had an experienced pro against a new star. But after the game, the room was filled with lots of people waiting for the words of a little girl. The loser had to make most of the speech. Surely, her smiling helped.

As some people have already said before, Sumire is surely more emotionally mature than the average girl her age, but still...

About the broadcasting: there were about 2200-2400 people watching. I wonder how many are the usual for a game like this. Or how many will be in round 2.

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Post #273 Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:27 am 
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Sumire also defeated Rafif Shidqi Fitrah (1p, 18 yrs) in Gosei 47. Big win, counts for promotion by wins and prize money.

This was her first win in the 3p promotion race.

2021 results: 14-2 (She's :w3:rd in overall 2021 Japanese ranking by wins on gotoeveryone web site).
Overall: 54-28
Promotion to 3p: 1 wins
Go rating: 2951, #690

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #274 Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:31 pm 
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Sumire flipped a game with a tesuji after her opponent passed on a won game.

https://twitter.com/asahi_igo/status/1379002283854159872

If I understand autotranslate correctly, on 1st round preliminary C of Meijin League, Okada Yumiko 6-dan passed and should have won by 7.5 but failed to defend against a tesuji inside her territory by shortage of liberties after dame were filled.

Position after passing
https://twitter.com/asahi_igo/status/1379056273686024196
The tesuji
https://twitter.com/asahi_igo/status/1379057427321024515


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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #275 Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:15 am 
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That's strange. Can anyone understand the Japanese story?

With autotranslation, it sounds like they were filling in the dame points, Okada passed and Sumire kept on playing, and getting a seki. But Okada saying "what are you doing?" can either mean that she was shocked or she thought the game was over. I don't really know the official rules regarding dame points at the end of the game.

The result is official, but it was a preliminary round, so no referee. And I think that no official record, either.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #276 Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:19 am 
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pajaro wrote:
That's strange. Can anyone understand the Japanese story?

With autotranslation, it sounds like they were filling in the dame points, Okada passed and Sumire kept on playing, and getting a seki. But Okada saying "what are you doing?" can either mean that she was shocked or she thought the game was over.


I speak a little bit Japanese, it this case the literal translation is "what are you doing" but it must be translated as something like "No, it can't be happening"

I share her feelings because I, like many others I guess, have experienced this kind of mistakes which cost the game (less important game than hers of course) but congratulations to Nakamura for finding this Tesuji :clap:

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #277 Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:49 am 
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I've seen a few slightly different versions (Chinese whispers, no doubt) but the sponsor Asahi's report indicates that Okada passed, Sumire played on, Okada answered, Sumire played an atari, and the penny finally dropped with Okada and she exclaimed "What have I done?!" and resigned. She then counted up and confirmed she was actually 14 points ahead on the board if she had played a repair move.

All that would seem to suggest she was not absolutely sure she was comfortably ahead, even though this is not a quickplay tournament, but she may still have been in time trouble and/or tired. In any case, Japanese pros feel they would lose face by making an unnecessary fill-in move, otherwise the justification for their rules is diminished.

There was no dispute. No referee was needed. No game record has been proffered. Maybe just the final position was photographed.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #278 Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:14 pm 
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Not about Sumire, but if we consider her the young bugler in the army of Amazons (or Androktones - 'slayers of men' - as Herodotus would have us say), we can pretend she's sounding the fanfare for an extra pip on the epaulette of Amazonian general Fujisawa Rina, who has just (April 2021) been promoted to 5-dan. This was based on achieving the requisite 70 wins at 4-dan. She turned pro in 2010 and is currently the Women's Honinbo and Women's Meijin, and holds the Young Carps title, Hakata-Kamachi Cup and the Aidu Chuo Tachiaoi Cup.

As for Sumire, her 15 wins this year have elevated her to 2nd place in the Nihon Ki-in's favoured ranking list - number of wins (15). Toot-toot!

Off the board, another female go player in the news is Okuda Aya 4-dan, who has just released the final volume 7 of a series of novels called 爛柯の宴 (the Go Banquet). Not my cup of tea, so I can't tell you anything about it, but they are available from (very appropriately!) Amazon.

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 Post subject: Re: Following Nakamura Sumire
Post #279 Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:13 am 
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I don't see a Fujiwara thread, but would be interesting. At least an Amazon Army one, because sooner than later one of them is going to make some noise in the big leagues. The Female Meijin, btw, is now played with a league format, and this tells me that the sponsor, who pays for game played, is confident that the tournament will be followed.

Back to Sumire, she won today in the Kisei prelim. AFAIK, Hara Masazaku is her best rated opponent so far (in won games, I mean). The next one might be against a 9p, but league C is close. It would mean a lot of hard games. Another level.

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Post #280 Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:43 am 
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I don't see a Fujiwara thread, but would be interesting


Fujisawa, not the foppish berk from Hikaru no Go. Here is slayer-of-men Fujisawa's reaction to your typo.

Attachment:
FujisawaRinaWatch.jpg
FujisawaRinaWatch.jpg [ 50.28 KiB | Viewed 2435 times ]


Actually, this was not a #YouToo moment directed at the men (though I'd like it to be). She is showing off a new ete wristwatch, which she got for her recent award of the 39th Journalists Club prize. She revealed that she is a bit of a scatterbrain and doesn't normally keep an eye on the time, but this is a watch she will wear. As an example of her alleged scatterbrain approach, she revealed that she was so engrossed in a post-game analysis she recently left the Nihon Ki-in while still wearing her slippers. I think we can sense in that one big reason for her success.

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