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 Post subject: Sort of trick move after 3-4 low approach
Post #1 Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:15 am 
Lives with ko

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Hi all.

I want to discuss with you a new trick move against territorial style, and I ask you for some considerations about the variations I showed.

IMPORTANT POINTS TO REMEMBER BEFORE ANSWERING PLEASE:

1) I ask you to look ONLY UPPER LEFT quadrant, don't look at whole board
2) To clarify more: my 9 trick move is not meant to be played in the position I showed or early in the game, but at the right moment after some developing move.
3) my goal is this: often territorial players play kosumi-tsuke after low approach to have a simple joseki and easy territory in the corner making simple for them to settle and keeping the move. With that trick move (or sort of trick, call whatever you like) I want to shift the calm position into a fight that my opponent not always could handle.

Thanks.



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 Post subject: Re: Sort of trick move after 3-4 low approach
Post #2 Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:07 am 
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I found only one example of this invasion being played:

http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/82404/


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 Post subject: Re: Sort of trick move after 3-4 low approach
Post #3 Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:20 am 
Honinbo

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I am glad that you found your "trick" play. :clap:

Two points. First, the White keima is not the most common local play by White, the one space jump on the third line is. The keima is preferred, based upon the whole board. Second, the bots have taught us that, even fairly early in the game, lines of play that may seem not so good to us humans, either because of a number of plays on the second line (for Black in this case) or because of "bad" shape (White's empty triangle in this case), are OK, if not best play. Asking even strong amateurs to judge these sequences is unlikely to yield either a correct answer or a good explanation. :lol:

Still, it is valuable to share the move you found. Thank you for that. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Sort of trick move after 3-4 low approach
Post #4 Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:28 pm 
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mhlepore wrote:
I found only one example of this invasion being played:

http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/82404/


interesting, thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Sort of trick move after 3-4 low approach
Post #5 Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:31 pm 
Lives with ko

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Bill Spight wrote:
I am glad that you found your "trick" play. :clap:

Two points. First, the White keima is not the most common local play by White, the one space jump on the third line is. The keima is preferred, based upon the whole board. Second, the bots have taught us that, even fairly early in the game, lines of play that may seem not so good to us humans, either because of a number of plays on the second line (for Black in this case) or because of "bad" shape (White's empty triangle in this case), are OK, if not best play. Asking even strong amateurs to judge these sequences is unlikely to yield either a correct answer or a good explanation. :lol:

Still, it is valuable to share the move you found. Thank you for that. :)


Ah, thank you. So I guess it's still playable, I'll try it in the next games!

Yes usually people do tobi instead of keima but especially on tygem and Fox they play this variation a lot and I struggle with the usual joseki because it's somewhat passive imo and I can't handle it like I should.

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 Post subject: Re: Sort of trick move after 3-4 low approach
Post #6 Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:04 am 
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For your first variation, did you consider White playing like this :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 1 2 O X . . . .
$$ | . 8 O . X . . . .
$$ | . . 3 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 O . . . . .
$$ | . 7 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: Sort of trick move after 3-4 low approach
Post #7 Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:11 pm 
Judan

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I'm only ~70% sure it was the same local shape, but this is indeed a shape point and I saw some AI games where this move was surprisingly powerful as a probe during outside fighting, though I can't recall/find them now.

Pattern search on the corner for pro games: http://ps.waltheri.net/570750
related examples:
http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/53581/
http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/51122/
http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/81087/


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