Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?

[Ferran]

Looks like a good idea. But why did they not mention it here? (Or reddit???)

I *suspect* it's a work in progress. I don't recall seeing that some weeks ago, and the CV don't seem to be linked, yet (they're on the site, though).

I really don't know, but... At the very least, as grumpy as I am sometimes with things, I felt this had to be shared. If I jumped the gun, I'm sorry for the hassle I might cause, and yet I think it merits sharing.

Take care.

[vash3g]

A new request has been submitted for someone involved to post an update.

[baduk]

The why is according to cego is to obtain european and more asian sponsors,if the game is internationaly more competetive the crowds that are willing to watch are much bigger,so they try to increase the level of players gradually and hope at somepoint they have competetive european players,which are absolutely necessary to achieve that,they need more ethnic diversity among the top players

[Ferran]

The why is according to cego is to obtain european and more asian sponsors,if the game is internationaly more competetive the crowds that are willing to watch are much bigger,so they try to increase the level of players gradually and hope at somepoint they have competetive european players,which are absolutely necessary to achieve that,they need more ethnic diversity among the top players

I'm having some trouble parsing that. CEGO is, AFAIK, an outreach program towards Europe. I don't see how that affects, or not, freezing the AGA pro system (which has since been sort of restarted... sort of). Also "diversity", at this point in time, can mean so many things it basically means nothing on its own. AND the possible diversity, or not, or both associations, is completely different. AGA has 5 pros from two countries, all of them with Chinese surname. EGF has 7 pros, from 6 nationalities, two continents and, being conservative, 3 different ethnic groups.

That Western players need to get better is a given. It's happened to Taiwan, Korea and China itself. That diversity has anything to do with to that... is questionable. And I'd like to read what experience the Chinese system has with it that supports those claims. Also, I don't think increasing diversity works that way. For starters, the pool of Go players is not wide enough. And the system is not strong enough, either, to attract pro-level Idonesians, Malaysians or blind people. Possibly, the European equivalent would be Tahitians, South Americans or Africans, I'm not sure. But to reach that far, first we'd need a much more solid base.

In any case, the semifinals for the 1st Transatlantic Professional Go League will have a Chinese-American, two (?) Caucasians, a Mediterranean, and a player of Eastern Mediterranean extraction [*], from three different continents. Out of four players, and not counting for possible mixed heritages [+]. What's the "diversity" in the Mingren semifinals?

Take care.

[*] Sorry, I don't have the data to be any more precise, and mistakes in that area can be... sensitive.
[+] I've never heard a European refer to himself as such, beyond saying it to reflect were his own parents had come from. Nothing beyond that. I have trouble trying to add the racial fractions of some of my US friends.

[jlt]

the semifinals for the 1st Transatlantic Professional Go League will have a Chinese-American, two (?) Caucasians, a Mediterranean, and a player of Eastern Mediterranean extraction [*], from three different continents.

The semifinals are
Ilya Shikshin 4p vs Tanguy Le Calvé 1p
Ryan Li 3p vs Artem Kachanovskyi 2p

Ryan Li is Chinese-Canadian, Ilya Shikshin is Russian, Artem Kachanovskyi is Ukrainian and Tanguy Le Calvé is French.

I only see 2 continents, Europe and America.

Who are the Mediterranean and the player of Eastern Mediterranean extraction?

[Ferran]

Who are the Mediterranean and the player of Eastern Mediterranean extraction?

Sorry, I mixed in Ali Jabarin, my fault (for Eastern Med). Tanguy le Calvé is, I believe, fom Narbonne. Med.

Ali Jabarin would mean Asia, also. I always have doubts on how to consider Russia, but Ilya Shikshin's city is West of the Urals, so he wouldn't count, if we don't want to get too subjective.

Take care.

[jlt]

Tanguy is from Nantes (west coast, Atlantic).

[baduk]

The why is according to cego is to obtain european and more asian sponsors,if the game is internationaly more competetive the crowds that are willing to watch are much bigger,so they try to increase the level of players gradually and hope at somepoint they have competetive european players,which are absolutely necessary to achieve that,they need more ethnic diversity among the top players

I'm having some trouble parsing that. CEGO is, AFAIK, an outreach program towards Europe. I don't see how that affects, or not, freezing the AGA pro system (which has since been sort of restarted... sort of). Also "diversity", at this point in time, can mean so many things it basically means nothing on its own. AND the possible diversity, or not, or both associations, is completely different. AGA has 5 pros from two countries, all of them with Chinese surname. EGF has 7 pros, from 6 nationalities, two continents and, being conservative, 3 different ethnic groups.

That Western players need to get better is a given. It's happened to Taiwan, Korea and China itself. That diversity has anything to do with to that... is questionable. And I'd like to read what experience the Chinese system has with it that supports those claims. Also, I don't think increasing diversity works that way. For starters, the pool of Go players is not wide enough. And the system is not strong enough, either, to attract pro-level Idonesians, Malaysians or blind people. Possibly, the European equivalent would be Tahitians, South Americans or Africans, I'm not sure. But to reach that far, first we'd need a much more solid base.

In any case, the semifinals for the 1st Transatlantic Professional Go League will have a Chinese-American, two (?) Caucasians, a Mediterranean, and a player of Eastern Mediterranean extraction [*], from three different continents. Out of four players, and not counting for possible mixed heritages [+]. What's the "diversity" in the Mingren semifinals?

Take care.

[*] Sorry, I don't have the data to be any more precise, and mistakes in that area can be... sensitive.
[+] I've never heard a European refer to himself as such, beyond saying it to reflect were his own parents had come from. Nothing beyond that. I have trouble trying to add the racial fractions of some of my US friends.

Maybe i got misunderstood,diversity of top players is the endgoal,in order to get more attention, thats the reason cego tries to improve europeans level,diversity of ethnicity (and countries) is the main point here.

[baduk]

[quote="Ferran"][quote="jlt"]Who are the Mediterranean and the player of Eastern Mediterranean extraction?[/quote]

Sorry, I mixed in Ali Jabarin, my fault (for Eastern Med). Tanguy le Calvé is, I believe, fom Narbonne. Med.

Ali Jabarin would mean Asia, also. I always have doubts on how to consider Russia, but Ilya Shikshin's city is West of the Urals, so he wouldn't count, if we don't want to get too subjective.

Take care.[/quote]
Thats absolutely good enough, russians are not regarded as asians in china,japan, or korea the most important part is that they need to look "different"from the perspective of china

[lodestone]

Looks like there will be a new North American pro by the end of August:

https://www.usgo.org/news/2021/08/2021- ... finalized/

[Kirby]

It'd be expensive, but if the AGA is interested in increasing the strength of American pros, there should be some sort of sponsorship of pro tournament/league within North America, where they invite pros from CKJ. That way, AGA pros get several opportunities to play against established pros in Asia, and that game experience will result in an increased level of play all around. This seems to be similar to the model adopted by the Chinese league games where they invited, e.g., pro players from Korea.

Yeah - who is going to pay for it? I guess that's the main question. But more game experience with top pros from other countries seems invaluable.

I guess the alternative is to try to get AGA pros to participate in pro tournaments in Asia. Whatever the case, it seems important to establish more international games. *shrug*

[Ferran]

It'd be expensive, but if the AGA is interested in increasing the strength of American pros, there should be some sort of sponsorship of pro tournament/league within North America, where they invite pros from CKJ.
[...]
I guess the alternative is to try to get AGA pros to participate in pro tournaments in Asia. Whatever the case, it seems important to establish more international games. *shrug*

I'm not so sure. I mean, sure, it'd be great to have more tournaments, no question about that. But the players do have opportunities, these days. OGS, KGS... Sure, it's not the same. It beats sending emails [*], and it's much cheaper than other alternatives. In any case, a European pro CAN play against an Eastern pro. It's not the same, sure, but I think it's a quite effective use of resources. IF we want to increase exposure to Eastern players in real life... There's a trove of Eastern qualified pros in the West that feels underused.

Now, assuming he's not that much different from other Western pros, it might be interesting to see how Ryan Li studies. His games at Western online tournaments are interesting; and his winning rate, nothing to brush aside. He does have a pocket-sized kenkyuukai at home, sure, and a dojo [+], but...

Now, from the outside, there are several things I don't like about the Euro/Transatlantic online league. But it is a... an ooteai, of sorts. It provides relatively frequent games for Western players [#]. And I think Tanguy le Calvé has managed to improve significantly, for example. In general, I'd have to check, but I think the games in the last league are much more "spongy" than the early ones; to me, it makes me think of better, more rounded, players. I also miss some players, from both Western societies and also immigrant players. Again, think e-ooteai.

We'll see. Whatever my hesitations, I do think there are many more options for Western go, immensely wider horizons, than 20 years before.

Take care.

[*] Or, gasp, FidoNet messages. Tried that, once.
[+] Teaching is usually not that conductive to improving, but I do see how *some* teaching (some hours a week, not a full time job) can lead one to explore reasons and other paths.
[#] Having several matches a day would improve that, but it wouldn't be as marketable. Possibly better for players, less so for watchers.

[Kirby]

There's a totally different feeling playing for a serious international tournament with cash prizes than playing a random game on the internet. Internet go servers have generally helped in closing the gap between amateur and pro, but I think serious tournaments are a different kind of beast, which would accelerate growth for the weaker participants.

[Ferran]

There's a totally different feeling playing for a serious international tournament with cash prizes than playing a random game on the internet. Internet go servers have generally helped in closing the gap between amateur and pro, but I think serious tournaments are a different kind of beast, which would accelerate growth for the weaker participants.

Hm... Well... I didn't say "random".

I do acknowledge that screen play is simply not the same; I don't know to what extent young pros still feel that way, but I'll assume it until I'm convinced otherwise.

However, I do think that if we're trying to make it within a reasonable budget, online is the way to go for a while. I don't think, for example, the current prize chest of the Transatlantic League would cover transport to have all the players together, once. Much less for a league, and not even considering B&B. Getting a player "here" (US or EU; whichever) would be less expensive... but we already have those, do we not?

Off the cuff, I think making sure these new pros have access to the rest of the pros ALREADY in the West [*] would be a better use of resources. We cannot assume eternally deep pockets in the East [+]. If they want to sponsor a Tournament, great. If we can manage to create a Western Invitational with pros from Japan, Korean or Taiwan, fantastic. Meanwhile, I'm thinking baby steps. Once our players are at a level close enough to other West-resident players, then we can try to set up an invitational or something, LG-cup style.

Take care.

[*] Delendas Carthago and all that

[+] Otherwise, the EGC would still be open, and the one in the West Coast wouldn't have had to blast SUE its patrons. I don't know how that will have played into any future plans from Japan. Make that *ANY*.

[lodestone]

The next North American Pro Qualification Tournament is apparently set for August 16-21. Games are played live, but will be broadcast on KGS.

https://www.usgo.org/news/2021/08/2021- ... finalized/

https://nationalgocenter.org/content.as ... m_id=67220&

https://nationalgocenter.org/content.as ... id=1504256


Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any information yet about who is playing. One of the sources above says 10 players. Another says 12.

No information is available about this at all on the NAGF web page:
https://nagofed.org/