48. Dusk Eagle (2k) vs dfan (4k)

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:38 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm72 Moves 72. Points from prisoners: W 0, B 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O . . . . . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . O X X O O . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . X . . O O . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . O . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:17 am

I realized I messed up the move numbering a while back by playing move 59 twice. Everything since then is off by two. It's fixed now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm75 Move 75. Points from prisoners: W 0, B 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O . . . . . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . O X X O O . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . 1 . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . X . . O O . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . O . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Again, that push at C9 is looking awfully nice.

I seem to be safe from being separated:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O . X O . . $$ | . X X O O X O . . $$ | . . O X X O O . . $$ | . . X X O X . . . $$ | . X a b O c . . . $$ | . O X 1 2 . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . O O X . . . .[/go]

and whether he plays a or b, I play c.

Another attempt to separate that doesn't work:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O . X O . . $$ | . X X O O X O . . $$ | . . O X X O O . . $$ | . . X X O X . . . $$ | . X 2 1 O 4 . . . $$ | . O X 3 . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . O O X . . . .[/go]

In fact, in addition to that push, I am currently threatening to
capture his cutting stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O O . X O . . $$ | . X X O O X O . . $$ | . . O X X O O . . $$ | . . X X O X . . . $$ | . X . . O 1 . . . $$ | . O X . 2 3 . . . $$ | . . O X 4 5 . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . O O X . . . .[/go]

so unless he can defend in sente, I have the chance to aim at multiple weaknesses.

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:52 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm76 Move 76. Points from prisoners: W 0, B 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O . . . . . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . O X X O O . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . X . . O . 1 . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . X . . O O . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . O . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Shoot. I thought I could cut him here, but I missed :b4:

below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O . . . . . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . O X X O O . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . X 3 . O 4 . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . O X 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . X . . O O . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . O . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So I'll just capture the cutting stone here instead.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:24 am

Huh! The first thing I notice is that I'm still connected; both of White's tries from my last move still fail for the same reason. I wonder whether it's time to make the push...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O . . . . . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . O X X O O . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . X . . O . O . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | a O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | 6 3 O X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . 2 1 X . . . . . . . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . 5 O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . X . . O O . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . O . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hey, that looks pretty good. The best part is that he still needs a move to secure the unconditional life of his stranded group on the left (I could start a ko by playing at a). Plus his bototm left group now needs to figure out how to live.

So maybe he'll protect on the other side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O . . . . . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . O X X O O . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . X . . O . O . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 O X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . 3 O X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . 2 1 X . . . . . . . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . c . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . a X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | b O O . . . . . . . X . X . . O O . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . O . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's his move now, but I still turned a lot of White territory into Black territory, and I still have some follow-up possibilities on the left (e.g., a - b - c).

By the way, I'm still connected even after I lose a liberty by pushing; I just make a net against my wall instead of playing it all out to capture.

Maybe I'm missing something, but if I am, I'll learn something!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm77 Move 77. Points from prisoners: W 0, B 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O . . . . . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . O X X O O . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . X . . O . O . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . X . . O O . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . O . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:08 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm78 Move 78. Points from prisoners: W 0, B 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O . . . . . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . O X X O O . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . X . . O . O . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . 1 X X . . . . . . . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . X . . O O . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . O . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:23 am

Here we go... by the way, I forgot to mention that I had also looked at what happens if I cut the other way. He has to capture the cutting stone or everything dies, so we end up with:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc A: Cutting south $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O . . . . . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . O X X O O . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . X . . O . O . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 O X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . 3 O X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . X . X . . O . . | $$ | 4 1 O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . X . . O O . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . O . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

which is worse for me than the similar situation if I cut north:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc B1: Cutting north, White lets me capture $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O . . . . . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . O X X O O . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . X . . O . O . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 O X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . 1 O X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . 2 O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . X . . O O . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . O . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

but prevents White from saving the left side group, as he can if I cut north:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc B2: Cutting north, White saves the left $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O . . . . . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . O X X O O . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . X . . O . O . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | 4 1 O X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . 3 O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . X . . O O . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . O . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So the real question is whether Diagram A is better or worse than Diagram B2. I'm going to go with B2 on general principle, even though it looks like less cash, because splitting him seems so nice; like I said, his left group still isn't unconditionally alive, and his bottom left group now has to run.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm79 Move 79. Points from prisoners: W 0, B 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O . . . . . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . O X X O O . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . X . . O . O . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . 1 O X . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . X . . O O . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . O . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:16 am

Yeah, I knew this was going to happen. I give up.

Good game dfan.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:23 am

Wow, is it really that bad? I thought that all this did was enable me to catch up, especially since you now have the possibility to make some real territory at the top. I think Black still has to prove he can effectively exploit White's remaining weaknesses, and that's not a sure thing, given our difference in rank. I bet if Magicwand were playing White he would think he was ahead

Anyway, thanks for the game; it was really interesting and I think I learned something. I look forward to reading your comments and those of the observers.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:01 am

k43r wrote:My sealed move
$$Wcm24 Move 24. Points from prisoners: W 0, B 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm24 Move 24. Points from prisoners: W 0, B 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Wow, interesting! That never even crossed my mind.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:57 am

OK, I finished reading through the comments, which were worth the wait! A few thoughts now that both our comments are public:

I feel like I was playing by the seat of my pants a lot more than you. I feel like my knowledge bank of joseki and general shape is deficient. I totally didn't know what I was doing in the lower left, for example.
It was interesting to me that the biggest plot element during the game to me was that you were playing really fast and leaving weaknesses behind for me to exploit later, but you never noted the same thing. Either I was overestimating your thinness or you were underestimating it. Too bad the game ended before we found out which.
I think you're right that I tend to play more defensively than aggressively. Back when I discovered the concept of playing "lightly" I totally overdid it and played really thinly instead; then the second half of the game would be really painful as my opponent exploited my weaknesses. Now I'm trying to play more solidly, but am probably overcompensating a bit. I have a feeling that reliably distinguishing between light and thin, and between heavy and thick, is still a couple of ranks away in my future.
I was less overthinking than just not having real-life time to think. As you can see, I didn't actually have that many variations (although there were more in the SGF file I used to keep track of the game).
I'm really not sure what was the best route to take in the upper left. You thought that my choice really reduced the point of my upper right position (which I also felt bad about), but I was kind of paranoid (probably unjustifiably) that the whole left was going to become very White. I'd be curious to hear what stronger players think.
I'm also curious what stronger players think of the situation on the left side. Obviously it turned out great for me in the end, but your move at C12 totally took me by surprise, and the following sequence is the most pushed-around I felt all game, especially since I had been thinking of that area as being mine. I really wasn't sure whether backing off and just making that fourth-line wall was good or not.

Thanks again for the game!

Life In 19x19

48. Dusk Eagle (2k) vs dfan (4k)

Re: 48. Dusk Eagle (2k) vs dfan (4k)

Re: 48. Dusk Eagle (2k) vs dfan (4k)

Re: 48. Dusk Eagle (2k) vs dfan (4k)

Re: 48. Dusk Eagle (2k) vs dfan (4k)

Re: 48. Dusk Eagle (2k) vs dfan (4k)

Re: 48. Dusk Eagle (2k) vs dfan (4k)

Re: 48. Dusk Eagle (2k) vs dfan (4k)

Re: 48. Dusk Eagle (2k) vs dfan (4k)

Re: 48. Dusk Eagle (2k) vs dfan (4k)

Re: 48. Dusk Eagle (2k) vs dfan (4k)