Hi again,

Sorry for posting so much. Someone mentioned Igowin in the other thread and I went looking for it. That's exactly the type of fighting practice I need! Thanks to whoever mentioned it.

I liked it so much that I downloaded the trial version of Many Faces of Go. It seems to be a GREAT program for a beginner to sharpen his (or her) fangs on. Is it as good as it appears or is there something better?

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

TominNJ

It looks like a decent all-rounder to me. But for most of it's modules there is a specialized program which does it better for free.

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Sanity is for the weak.

The joseki tutor and the problems are great, but it is too expensive to buy for only these reasons in my opinion.
for the other functions are indeed better (free) alternatives.
You might also enjoy playing against it. It has a relatively good computer player.

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Laurens
Go school: freegame's Teaching School
Author of: The Next Move a book for 15-3kyu players.

.. and the problems that come with it are from the Graded Go Problems for beginners series.

I had the previous version of MFG and enjoyed using it for a good while. I'd recommend it to any beginner who can afford it. The latest version is pretty strong too.

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I am John. John-I-Am.

I have Many Faces of Go. One of its best features is its strong engine. It's arguably the strongest retail (English) computer Go program out there. As others have said, most of the other features can be found elsewhere for free. I think the price for MFoG is a bit steep, but I bought it anyway and have no regrets. I use it all the time.

_________________
"This is a game that rewards patience and balance. You must think like a man of action and act like a man of thought."
-Jonas Skarssen

Is it the whole series or only the first book? IIRC I think I have read something like that.

_________________
FusekiLibrary, an opening library.
SGF converter tools: Wbaduk NGF to SGF | 440 go problems | Fuseki made easy | Tesuji made easy | Elementary training & Dan level testing | Dan Tutor Shortcut To Dan

Another one you might enjoy, is SmartGo

it's been a while since I used it (version 11) but there were definitely some problems from volume 2. I remember the example problem listed here for volume 2, for example:

http://senseis.xmp.net/?GradedGoProblemsForBeginners

but MFG doesn't run well for me on Linux using Wine (stones become squares) so it's been a while. I don't think it contained all the problems from any book but I'm fairly sure every problem I checked from MFG was in the books.

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I am John. John-I-Am.

I didn't know it was $90 or I probably wouldn't have asked the question. That is more than a little steep.

Wow...

There are alternatives for most of its features:
* AI: you can use Drago with engines like fuego, mogo, gnugo,...
* Joseki: Daniels website(dailyjoseki.com) is very similar
* Fuseki: CarlJung has some link in his sig. I have no experience with that software though.
* Problems: GoGrinder, but you have to find problem-files yourself.

_________________
Sanity is for the weak.

Just curious. I might have a somewhat different perseoctive since I'm retried from a career making my living doing software plus being old enough to have been around for the original "free software" discussions (when "free" did NOT mean free as in free beer but non restrictive licensing and "software for the price of a book")

So my question --- what DO you think a reasonable price for a software application sold under the conditions....
a) Site license. As many copies as you want running on as many computers as you have. In other words, a family pays this. Very different from other software sold on the basis price is "per copy running" or even "price installed on one machine" (you pay again when you get a new computer)
b) Price is a first time cost. Interim updates are free for the download and entirely new versions, when they come out every few years are about half price.

In other words, instead of simply saying $90 is super steep say what you think a reasonable price would be. Bear in mind that a FREE software application should be considered as costing $5-10 (if software is under the free license must be available to you in source form on "standard medium" not charging more for that than customary for that service and that's what you'd get charged these days for burining to CD and mailing it to you. Yes, somebody MIGHT be willing to supply you with already compiled executables and MIGHT be willing to set up a site from which you could download those but nobody has that obligation.) Also keep in mind that these days a typical hard cover book costs about $20 and a text book around $50. Useful comparison. Perhaps alongside your "I would consider $X a fair price" estimate how much per year you spend on go books.

Given the size of the market, the price is not that excessive, though it harkens back to the days when software was much more expensive than it is now. (ie, when, say, Microsoft Office cost more than $500 a copy.) I'd think a $50 price tag would be more fair, and I'd be willing to pay for regular updates. But - and this is a big but - it has to not have a restrictive registration/activation scheme, as MFG does. I run it on my Mac in virtualization, and when I changed virtualization programs, I had to get a new code to activate it. It took something like ten days, because the developer wasn't answering his e-mails.

I wouldn't buy software from him again.

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My blog about Macs and more: Kirkville

Does someone know whether MFG (or any other software) plays the shape game? That would be a good reason for me to buy it.

Shape game: Black has a wall on the first line (edge of the board) and the aim as white is to create a living group in the middle. http://senseis.xmp.net/?ShapeGame
Big difference from regular go software is that the aim is not collecting points but just living/killing in the middle. Would be fun to play and a good fighting exercise.

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If you say no, Elwood and I will come here for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day of the week.

Leela sells for €49.99.
Go++ sells for $39.99.
Fuego is free.
Mogo is free.

_________________
FusekiLibrary, an opening library.
SGF converter tools: Wbaduk NGF to SGF | 440 go problems | Fuseki made easy | Tesuji made easy | Elementary training & Dan level testing | Dan Tutor Shortcut To Dan

Interestingly, David Fotland asked these same sorts of questions, with the same sort of rationale about FREE software, on rec.games.go several years ago. He didn't listen to his potential customers then, why would he listen to them now?

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 12&lnk=ol&

_________________
"This is a game that rewards patience and balance. You must think like a man of action and act like a man of thought."
-Jonas Skarssen

Yes, very interesting. I just worked all through that discussion form before the release of MFOG 12 and interpret it differently than you. Fotland apparently did listen (to his customers).

a) People who had bought previous versions did get MFOG 12 at a discounted price.
b) He dropped the "call home" solution to the multiple registrations problem. In effect this left him without a solution* (and people now complaining about that). He even relaxed the "how many computers" but that might be because he's got problems with the registration process (multiple logins on the same machine).

He did ignore some, yes. Well people who say "wouldn't be interested unless free" are NOT potential customers. He made the judgement that not enough potential customers using Macs to justify that effort. The problem of having to reregister when running under an emulator and changing that emulator is related to "b".

LOOK -- this is a "beginners" subsection. As long as you are in double digits you probably don't need to shell out for MFOG 12 as there are less expesnive and there are free applications able to strong enouhg opponetns on a "standard computer" for you to learn from.

Michael


* This is a hard problem (allowing multiple registrations). Perhaps could design an AI app which could run on a server for automated generation of keys (decide whether the request for another key seemed reasonable or reject, sending it to a human for appeal decision). But I don't think there are enough applications being sold on a "run on a reasonable number of YOUR machines" basis to justify writing the app for any single small scale software vendor.

Seriously? I use _lots_ of applications on my Mac, and try out _lots_ of others, since I review a fair amount of software. I have seen a total of, perhaps, a half-dozen apps that require some sort of activation scheme as is common on Windows. Does he really think that his app is going to be pirated that much that he can't just use a serial number? The whole bit of a human being having to respond so you can use the app is ludicrous.

_________________
My blog about Macs and more: Kirkville

More to the point, does he think that his machine lock-in scheme is going to convert a potential pirate into a customer. Very few I think. But he also loses the customers that don't like that kind of setup.

_________________
FusekiLibrary, an opening library.
SGF converter tools: Wbaduk NGF to SGF | 440 go problems | Fuseki made easy | Tesuji made easy | Elementary training & Dan level testing | Dan Tutor Shortcut To Dan

Besides, if it was popular enough, it would be reverse engineered so the activation wasn't necessary (by tricking the product it already had been activated). That's how most pirated software that requires activation is handled.

Most DRM systems don't affect pirates, even the insanely upsetting Starforce only lasted a couple of weeks (after which pirates were happily using DRM free software and the purchasers of the legit stuff were having all manner of annoyances). All they hurt is the honest consumer who wants a product that works without unnecessary hassles or overheads.

That's a fair question. $40-45 would be my upper limit if the program does what I expect it to do and it actually works. Too many programs don't. I don't think I'd get enough use out of it to pay more.

I've only been playing Go for a couple months so I can't give you a per year cost for books. I do prefer books to software. I can carry books with me. I can read one during commercials on the tv. Software ties me to one computer (the only one I have) in one room of the house.