GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Post by Cassandra »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:During play:
Option A is true ;-) Depending of the way time is handled it could be a way to gain time ;-)
Option B does not exist because it is already the option C listed under status confirmation phase
Option C is also true. Depending of the circumtances this double may also allow to reach a NO RESULT game
Option D is true if a player plays in the double ko though the opponent did not take a ko elsewhere.

Additionnal option: a tool allowing to request on infinite number of resumptions with each time a real play on the board!

For status confirmation it is highly dependant of this status confirmation : pass-ko used, independancy of the areas via local-2 or other means ...
Nice contribution to fill your time to think about it.

The quiz master will then remind you of the rules:
-- Press the right button, and receive Yen 10,000,000.
-- Press the right button again, and receive Yen 20,000,000 instead.

Which buttons will you press?
:razz: :razz: :razz:
Last edited by Cassandra on Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Cassandra wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:During play:
Option A is true ;-) Depending of the way time is handled it could be a way to gain time ;-)
Option B does not exist because it is already the option C listed under status confirmation phase
Option C is also true. Depending of the circumtances this double may also allow to reach a NO RESULT game
Option D is true if a player plays in the double ko though the opponent did not take a ko elsewhere.

Additionnal option: a tool allowing to request on infinite number of resumptions with each time a real play on the board!

For status confirmation it is highly dependant of this status confirmation : pass-ko used, independancy of the areas via local-2 or other means ...
Nice contribution to fill your time to think about it.

The quiz master will then remind you of the rules:
-- Press the right button, and receive 10.000.000 Yen.
-- Press the right button again, and receive 20.000.000 Yen instead.

Which buttons will you press?
:razz: :razz: :razz:
I give up Thomas because I am not able to choose between several options which seem true ;-) ;-) ;-)
OK, you have won, what is the good answer? :-?
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Post by Cassandra »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:I give up Thomas because I am not able to choose between several options which seem true ;-) ;-) ;-)
OK, you have won, what is the good answer? :-?
This seems to be standard with "Who Wants to Be a Billionaire", doesn't it?

The quiz master will not tell you the correct answer until you have pressed a button.
And he'll warn you: If you don't want to push a button, you'll fall back to Yen 10,000.
:razz:

It's like solving Tsume-Go, or as with "HIGHLANDER": There can be only one!
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Post by Cassandra »

Cassandra wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:I give up Thomas because I am not able to choose between several options which seem true ;-) ;-) ;-)
OK, you have won, what is the good answer? :-?
This seems to be standard with "Who Wants to Be a Billionaire", doesn't it?

The quiz master will not tell you the correct answer until you have pressed a button.
And he'll warn you: If you don't want to push a button, you'll fall back to Yen 10,000.
:razz:

It's like solving Tsume-Go, or as with "HIGHLANDER": There can be only one!
Quiz master: "Oh, what a pity! You fell back to Yen 10,000. Nevertheless, the time with you was very entertaining. Many thanks! Good bye."
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Post by Cassandra »

Honte's magic DOUBLE-KO spell (contd)


##### What is a DOUBLE-Ko during "play"? #####


A) A tool for prolonging the game?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . X O . O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X X X X X X . |
$$ | X O . O X . X O O O O O . |
$$ | O O O O X . X O . O . O . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . X O 2 O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | 3 X O O X X X X X X X X 1 |
$$ | X O . O X . X O O O O O . |
$$ | O O O O X . X O . O . O . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . X 5 X O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O O X . . . X . . 4 |
$$ | O X O O X X X X X X X X O |
$$ | 6 O . O X . X O O O O O . |
$$ | O O O O X . X O . O . O . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm7
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . X O 2 O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O O X . . . X . . X |
$$ | 3 X O O X X X X X X X X O |
$$ | X O . O X . X O O O O O 1 |
$$ | O O O O X . X O . O . O . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm7
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . X 5 X O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O O X . . . X . 4 X |
$$ | O X O O X X X X X X X X O |
$$ | 6 O . O X . X O O O O O . |
$$ | O O O O X . X O . O . O . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
TWELVE moves.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . X O . O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O O X . . . X . 4 2 |
$$ | . X O O X X X X X X X X 1 |
$$ | X O . O X . X O O O O O 3 |
$$ | O O O O X . X O . O . O . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
FOUR moves.

Seems so, but does it make any sense?

A) is wrong.



B) A tool for complicating status confirmation?

That may be the general assessment. However, it is not true, as we will see later.

B) is wrong.



C) A tool for preventing the opponent from playing two moves in a row?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . X O . O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O O X . . . X . 4 2 |
$$ | . X O O X X X X X X X X 1 |
$$ | X O . O X . X O O O O O 3 |
$$ | O O O O X . X O . O . O . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Capturing into the DOUBLE-KO only makes sense if any of :w1: , :b2: , :w3: cannot be IMMEDIATELY answered with :b2: , :w3:, :b4: respectively, which would result in the opponent being able to play TWO MOVES IN A ROW.
The only formation that is eligible for this is a KO-SHAPE.

C) is correct.


D) Simply nonsense?

Please refer to the comment on C).

D) is wrong.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++


##### What is a DOUBLE-Ko during status confirmation? #####


A) A tool for preventing the opponent from playing two moves in a row?

As a matter of course (see C) for "play"), but does it make any sense during STATUS CONFIRMATION?

With a composition of (at least) THREE KO-SHAPES, there is the additional danger that the status confirmation will last forever, in the case the players do not realise that they are cought in a CYCLE.
Or their discussions might become unnecessarily complicated and / or their results / decisions doubtful.

A) is wrong.



B) Simply useless?

It is unbelievable, but it seems that no one discovered "Honte's magic DOUBLE-KO spell" before. Or is someone did, they kept is secret. Or DOUBLE-KO is in reality not as serious a problem as they are often portrayed as.

DOUBLE-KO have absolutely NO effect in determining the status of groups, and hence they are superfluous.

B) is correct.



C) A position for significantly complicating status confirmation?

Yes, indeed. This of course was the case in the past.

But luckily, Honte has his magic wand that he will be using soon.

The future will be easier. At least for those who have heard of Honte.

C) is wrong.



D) A tool for complicating status confirmation?

That may be the general assessment. However, it is not true, as we will see later.
See also B).

D) is wrong.
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Post by Cassandra »

Cassandra wrote:Quiz master: "Oh, what a pity! You fell back to Yen 10,000. Nevertheless, the time with you was very entertaining. Many thanks! Good bye."
Dear Gérard,

Honte absolutely does not like your definition of "two-eye formation" (he does not understand it and therefore cannot apply it; I have to constantly help him), but he will nevertheless compensate you for the lost 9,990,000 yen.

The only price you have to pay for this is patience. :D

It's like using switchbacks to get to the top of a mountain. Not particularly steep, but looooooong. And it laaaaaaasts.
You will then be more than satisfied with the panoramic view from above.
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Post by Cassandra »

Loops with a cycle-length of pseudo 6


##### About compositions of one ko-shape #####

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
$$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
$$ ? ? X X X ? ?
$$ ? ? X O X ? ?
$$ ? ? O a O ? ?
$$ ? ? O O O ? ?
$$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
$$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ?[/go]
SIMPLE-ko
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ? ? ?
$$ ? O ?
$$ ? a ?
$$ ? ? ?[/go]
Will save a lot of space...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . M M M . . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . M Y M . . . ? W ? . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . M X M . . . ? , ? . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . M M M . . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . Y . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . Q . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . Q . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . . M M M . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . ? , ? . . . M O M . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . ? B ? . . . M Q M . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . . M M M . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ {AR L15 L5}
$$ {AR J5 J15}
$$ {AR L17 Q15}
$$ {AR Q13 Q5}
$$ {AR D8 D15}
$$ {AR F10 J4}
$$ {AR O11 L16}
$$ {AR J3 D6}
$$ {AR L18 Q15}
$$ {AR N10 L16}
$$ {AR G11 J4}
$$ {AR J2 D6}
$$ {AR P13 O11}
$$ {AR E8 F10}[/go]
This diagram shows the GENUINE simple-ko cycle.
The marked stones are those that have been played last.

However, both sides are free to leave the cycle shown (symbolised by the "double-arrows").
This exit can be taken at every position of the cycle.

Thereafter, the opponent has two options:
Option 1:
-- They fill the ko-shape.
-- This terminates status confirmation.
Option 2:
-- They play another move outside the cycle.
-- This returns to the cycle. Both sides have played one move each outside the cycle, what they could have done anyway.


--------------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . ? W ? . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . ? , ? . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . M M M p a s . . . . . |
$$ | . . . Y . . . . . . . . . . s Y . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . p a . . . . . . . . p . . |
$$ | . . . . . . s s . . . M M M . . a . . |
$$ | . . p . . M M M . . . M Y M . . s . . |
$$ | . . a , . M Q M . , . M M M . , s . . |
$$ | . . s . . M M M . . . p a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . s . . . . . . . . s s . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . Q p . . . . . . . . . . Q . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . s s M M M . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . ? , ? . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . ? B ? . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ {AR L17 Q15}
$$ {AR Q13 Q8}
$$ {AR D8 D13}
$$ {AR Q6 L3}
$$ {AR J3 D6}
$$ {AR D15 J17}
$$ {AR L18 Q15}
$$ {AR P7 L3}
$$ {AR J2 D6}
$$ {AR E14 J17}
$$ {AR P7 N10}
$$ {AR E14 G11}[/go]
However, the GENUINE simple-ko cycle is forbidden by the rules.

Thus, leaving the "cycle" is ENFORCED.
Let us restrict ourselves to "pass" for a while, because we want to create an alternative (pseudo) cycle.

The opponent MUST play another move OUTSIDE the "cycle" (which is another "pass" here) as well.

Thereafter, there are two options:
Option 1:
-- A THIRD "pass" is played. This terminates status confirmation.
Option 2:
-- They return to the cycle.

Conclusion:
Both sides found a way to act as is they were inside the GENUINE simple-ko cycle, without breaking the rules of the game.
However, this is nonsense, isn't it?

Therefore, a cycle that consists of ...

:w1: capture into a simple-ko
:b2: pass
:w3: pass
:b4: re-capture into that simple-ko
:w5: pass
:b6: pass

... does NEVER EVER have a GENUINE length of 6.
Last edited by Cassandra on Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B black to play and win
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . X X X O X . X . |
$$ | O O . X O O X X X |
$$ | . . . X O . O X O |
$$ | . X X X O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X X X X O O |
$$ | . O O . X . X X O |
$$ | X X X X X . . X X |
$$ | O O O . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . . . . |
$$ +--------------------[/go]
Your are black playing against me (I am not a very good player indeed and I made a lot of mistakes in this game). You have got a good advantage but you might be disturbed by an important call which will force you to left the room. Fortunatly, should this happen, Honte is there and is allowed to help you and finish the game for you.
What move do you choose?
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Post by Cassandra »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B black to play and win
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . X X X O X . X . |
$$ | O O . X O O X X X |
$$ | . . . X O . O X O |
$$ | . X X X O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X X X X O O |
$$ | . O O . X . X X O |
$$ | X X X X X . . X X |
$$ | O O O . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . . . . |
$$ +--------------------[/go]
Your are black playing against me (I am not a very good player indeed and I made a lot of mistakes in this game). You have got a good advantage but you might be disturbed by an important call which will force you to left the room. Fortunatly, should this happen, Honte is there and is allowed to help you and finish the game for you.
What move do you choose?
:D :D :D

Honte basically agrees with your offer. But he is always very precise.

Additionally, "environment" plays an extremely important role in dog behavior. To give you an example:
If you ONLY practiced the command "sit" with a puppy in the living room, he would look at you with huge eyes when you say "sit" to him in the kitchen.

Thus…

-- Which territory ruleset do you want Honte to apply?
-- What is the komi?
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Cassandra wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B black to play and win
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . X X X O X . X . |
$$ | O O . X O O X X X |
$$ | . . . X O . O X O |
$$ | . X X X O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X X X X O O |
$$ | . O O . X . X X O |
$$ | X X X X X . . X X |
$$ | O O O . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X . . . . |
$$ +--------------------[/go]
Your are black playing against me (I am not a very good player indeed and I made a lot of mistakes in this game). You have got a good advantage but you might be disturbed by an important call which will force you to left the room. Fortunatly, should this happen, Honte is there and is allowed to help you and finish the game for you.
What move do you choose?
:D :D :D

Honte basically agrees with your offer. But he is always very precise.

Additionally, "environment" plays an extremely important role in dog behavior. To give you an example:
If you ONLY practiced the command "sit" with a puppy in the living room, he would look at you with huge eyes when you say "sit" to him in the kitchen.

Thus…

-- Which territory ruleset do you want Honte to apply?
-- What is the komi?
-J89 or J2003 or GT territory rule as you want
-no komi
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Post by Cassandra »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Cassandra wrote:-J89 or J2003 or GT territory rule as you want
-no komi
Any prisoners so far?
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Cassandra wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Cassandra wrote:-J89 or J2003 or GT territory rule as you want
-no komi
Any prisoners so far?
Yes no prisoner but wait a moment; I have to modify the position because I forget one point of the rule.
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Post by Cassandra »

Gérard TAILLE wrote:Yes no prisoner but wait a moment; I have to modify the position because I forget one point of the rule.
Honte sleeps anyway at the moment, so you can take your time...

Waking a sleeping dog is never a good idea.
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Cassandra wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:Yes no prisoner but wait a moment; I have to modify the position because I forget one point of the rule.
Honte sleeps anyway at the moment, so you can take your time...

Waking a sleeping dog is never a good idea.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B black to play and win
$$ +------------------------
$$ | . X X X X O O X . X . |
$$ | O O O X X O O O X X X |
$$ | . . . X X O O . O X O |
$$ | . X X X X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X X O O O O O O |
$$ | . O O . X O X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X O X . . X . |
$$ | O O O O O X X X . X . |
$$ | . O X X X X . . X X X |
$$ | O O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ +------------------------[/go]
That way it seems to work
no komi, no prisonners, japanese rule.
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Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Post by Gérard TAILLE »

Cassandra wrote:Loops with a cycle-length of pseudo 6


##### About compositions of one ko-shape #####

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
$$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
$$ ? ? X X X ? ?
$$ ? ? X O X ? ?
$$ ? ? O a O ? ?
$$ ? ? O O O ? ?
$$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
$$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ?[/go]
SIMPLE-ko
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ? ? ?
$$ ? O ?
$$ ? a ?
$$ ? ? ?[/go]
Will save a lot of space...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . M M M . . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . M Y M . . . ? W ? . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . M X M . . . ? , ? . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . M M M . . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . Y . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . Q . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . Q . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . . M M M . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . ? , ? . . . M O M . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . ? B ? . . . M Q M . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . . M M M . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ {AR L15 L5}
$$ {AR J5 J15}
$$ {AR L17 Q15}
$$ {AR Q13 Q5}
$$ {AR D8 D15}
$$ {AR F10 J4}
$$ {AR O11 L16}
$$ {AR J3 D6}
$$ {AR L18 Q15}
$$ {AR N10 L16}
$$ {AR G11 J4}
$$ {AR J2 D6}
$$ {AR P13 O11}
$$ {AR E8 F10}[/go]
I am trying to read your diagram.
Why in the upper left corner you drawed a :bt: where I expected a :bc: ?
Same question with white stones in the bottom right corner.
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