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 Post subject: Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
Post #121 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:33 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
Next secondary theater of war please!

There is NEVER EVER a GENUINE DOUBLE-ko that contains an independently alive group.


Fine Thomas, the "Honte's double ko" definition begins to take place. Comparing to the common double ko defintion you added:
1) a GENUINE double-ko does NOT change its L&D status with the occupation of DAME. As it does have AT THE VERY MOST ONE
2) there is NEVER EVER a GENUINE DOUBLE-ko that contains an independently alive group
It remains the defintion of DAME under point 1) but anyway it becomes clearer.
I am not sure if you also added something on unfinshed position?

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 Post subject: Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
Post #122 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:55 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
a GENUINE double-ko does NOT change its L&D status with the occupation of DAME.

I think you are mixing up common terms and word usage with your own ideas. Using more specific attribute instead of "genuine" would seem wiser indeed.

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
If you just define what is a "Honte's double ko" and what is a "Honte's dame" then surely all the misunderstandings will diappear.

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 Post subject: Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
Post #123 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:18 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Cassandra wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . O . X O . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X O O O |
$$ | . . O O X . X O O |
$$ | . . . O X X O O O |
$$ | . . . O O O X X X |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

Please, try to respect without any change the position I proposed.

You seem to not agree that this position is not a double ko but what harms in this position when you take SL definition?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . O . X O . O . |
$$ | . . O . X X O O O |
$$ | . . O O X . X O O |
$$ | . . . O X X O O O |
$$ | . . . O O O X X X |
$$ | . . . . . O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

The L&D status of White's group in the corner does NOT depend on the two ko-shapes, as can be easily proven.

No Thomas I cannot agree on this point. In J89, when you look for the status of the white group in the corner it is BLACK to play first.

Cassandra wrote:
Please be aware that Sensei's Library's definition refers primarily to "play".

Agreed. A double ko in the confirmation phase has never been defined. If you use it with a different definition you have to give this defintion and maybe you have to use another wording to avoisd ambiguity : "Honte's double ko for confirmation phase" or whatever you want

Cassandra wrote:
The L&D status of Black's group does NOT depend on the two ko-shapes as well, as White will be able to occupy its outside liberties with ease. Black might prolong his lifetime a bit by capturing into the double-ko, but that's all.

Still agreed, contrary to white group, the status of black does not depend on the double ko

Next secondary theater of war please!

There is nothing more to get for you on this one.

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs, really solved by KataGo)

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 Post subject: Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles
Post #124 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:19 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Cassandra wrote:
Next secondary theater of war please!

There is NEVER EVER a GENUINE DOUBLE-ko that contains an independently alive group.


Fine Thomas, the "Honte's double ko" definition begins to take place. Comparing to the common double ko defintion you added:
1) a GENUINE double-ko does NOT change its L&D status with the occupation of DAME. As it does have AT THE VERY MOST ONE
2) there is NEVER EVER a GENUINE DOUBLE-ko that contains an independently alive group
It remains the defintion of DAME under point 1) but anyway it becomes clearer.
I am not sure if you also added something on unfinshed position?

Chrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs, really solved by KataGo)

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