Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game design

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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by CDavis7M »

CDavis7M wrote:I do not understand the preoccupation with trying to make this game worse.
I have yet to learn why people want to make the game worse. But I guess my prior thinking was correct -- some people are unaware of game design or willing to accept a worse game design in order to absolutely determine a winner.

Which I guess brings me to the ultimate question. Why are people that do not direct tournaments discussing rules that are only needed in tournaments and which can only decided by the tournament director?

Perhaps it would be better if L19x19 had a section for tournament directors where they could discuss superko rules along with tournament food provisions and the like.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by RobertJasiek »

CDavis7M, I ignore your basic meta-discussion ("troll", "long post", "complicated discussions", "anyone[...] will understand", "'Cycles' are not even a concept of Go", "You don't even know what a 'game' is",...) but "you don't know about game design" needs a reply: I have designed three advanced board games. Apparently, you wonder why I discuss the thread topic seriously: look into the thread title and perceive just how far-reaching, fundamental and provocing its claims are.

You have claimed that ko rules would only need to consider the last state / turn.

I pose you questions (a), (c) and (d) because each requires consideration of more than the last turn.

When you speak of "bookkeeping", I think that you mean mentally keeping track of a series of (more than two) positions for the purpose of applying a ko rule but not for the purpose of solving a life and death problem.

Using your term, your aforementioned claim means that ko rules would not need bookkeeping. Your claim is false because detection of repetition after more than two moves aka occurrence of a cycle does require bookkeeping.

E.g., application of a no-result rule does require bookkeeping.
A superko rule and a no-result rule do not differ with respect to requiring bookkeeping. They do differ as to whether a player must avoid or detect the first repetition aka occurrence of a cycle.

Although you emphasise the bookkeeping, maybe it is not the bookkeeping that you want to avoid but maybe you want to avoid a rule with a strict punishment on the first repetition aka occurrence of a cycle?

Is this an aspect that lets you have the opinion of superko being bad? It can't be the bookkeeping, see above!

You mention complexity as another aspect of your opinion of superko being bad. So far, you have not explained well what complexity you mean. It cannot be complexity of bookkeeping because this is the same for every (ordinary) ko rule. You might confuse the harshness with complexity. Or you might refer to the strategic complexity of those ko shapes whose correct fight is complex and is not as simple as of a triple ko, which is fought like a basic ko under superko.

Either a suicide rule or a no suicide rule is necessary. Such can be hidden in the wording of a move rule, but the necessity exists.

Letting players do nigiri requires description of how to perform nigiri and the actual performance; both are more complicated than the declaration of a tie. A second game on a small board requires its execution so is more complicated than the declaration of a tie. If a tournament by all means needs a game winner, a rule "Black wins ties" solves it simply and quickly.

Since you mention thousands of board games, there are even those (other than go) having cycles;)

The "game-mechanic for tracking the cycle" is that of tactical reading for the purpose of verifying an aim, such as clarifying a status. The difference is having the different aim of detecting a cycle.

"Any rule about cycles goes beyond the game of go." Note that capturing and recapturing in the same basic ko is a cycle and the basic ko rule is a rule about such cycles and is part of the game of go.

"why cycles longer than two moves would need a ruling in the first place": Without rule(s) for them, the naive game play is stubborn recycling resulting, e.g., in a dispute over who wins the game. The worse possibility between two newbies is the finding that go would not be worth playing as a game that can end in stupidity due to a serious rules gap.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by CDavis7M »

I never claimed that the ko rules do not require minimal mental bookkeeping. I explicitly said that good game design does not require the player to remember anything beyond the last turn (eg placing a stone to capture a stone). Even Hi-Ho-Cherry-o demands that the children remember who took the last turn.

Recognize that there is a difference between rules complexity (bad game design) and tactical complexity (good game design). The superko rule is bad game design. The possibility of complex life and death problems is good game design. They both require mental calculations but one is a rule and the other is a tactic.

The basic ko rule is simple and does not require any tracking of "cycles." The rule merely states that if the last play in the game was placing a stone to capture your stone, then you cannot place a stone where your just-captured stone was to capture the just-played stone. With no additional bookkeeping the basic ko rule provides a huge increase in strategical complexity. It also avoids a perpetual cycle that would be likely to occur in many games. This amazing game design. Now compare that with the superko rule, which covers very rare circumstances, which demands an artificial victory condition that is not based on the current game-state, and which provides a poor and stale excuse for strategy (eg try not to make a cycle or you lose!) at the cost of mental bookkeeping over several turns. This is bad game design. And the bottom line is the basic Kos are fun while tracking for superko positions is not fun. Go is a game. Nothing more.

There are tradeoffs in designing board games. The very small possibility of a perpetual cycle is better design than imposing an artificial victory condition relying on mental bookkeeping. The possibility of mugging each other for aeons does not need to be covered by the rules, it can be mentioned in an explanation of the game.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by Cassandra »

CDavis7M wrote:I explicitly said that good game design does not require the player to remember anything beyond the last turn (eg placing a stone to capture a stone).
As Robert already explained in great details, cycles are system-immanent elements of the game of Go.
The basic ko-rule prohibits cycles of the length of 2. Which have the same properties as cycles of a length of 6, 10, ...

It seems to me that you have such great problems with cycles of a length of 6, just because these are so rare in "normal" games. You will easily realise that a cycle of ko-capture, pass, pass, ko-capture, pass, pass, which simulates the forbidden 2-move cycle in a single ko-shape, has this length of 6!
And just because e.g. Japanese rule set creators apparently did not see any justification for prohibiting these (explicitly).

However, as cycles of a length of 2, 6, 10, ... have the same properties, it would not do any harm to the game (design), if some rule set creator disabled this ENTIRE class of cycles. Just because it needed a conclusive justification, why they prohibited ONLY ONE element of this class. "Probability of occurance" is NOT that convincing...
As is "Did not see any need to analyse cycles".

Regarding a cycle, there is nothing difficult to remember, especially in the case of enforced ones. Probably the one or the other player will need more than only one pass to realise, but even the very most unexperienced player will -- sooner or later.
Every Go player who has a bit experience, is able to correctly remember Jôseki, so no Go player at all will have any difficulties in remembering a repeated sequence of 6 moves that just appeared before seconds!
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by RobertJasiek »

CDavis7M wrote:Recognize that there is a difference between rules complexity (bad game design) and tactical complexity (good game design). The superko rule is bad game design. The possibility of complex life and death problems is good game design. They both require mental calculations but one is a rule and the other is a tactic.
1) You describe rules with only the basic ko rule as good design. You fail to explain how to play, or design good rules for, all other kos.

2) You call complex rules bad design and superko bad design. You fail to explain why, IYO, superko was bad design. Superko is a simple rule with the possibility of complex life and death, which you call good design. For superko application to long sequences and for life and death with long sequences, more than the last turn needs to be recalled. Nevertheless, you call the former bad design and the latter good design. Your opinion is inconsistent.
The basic ko rule is simple and does not require any tracking of "cycles." The rule merely states that if the last play in the game was placing a stone to capture your stone, then you cannot place a stone where your just-captured stone was to capture the just-played stone. With no additional bookkeeping the basic ko rule provides a huge increase in strategical complexity. It also avoids a perpetual cycle that would be likely to occur in many games. This amazing game design. Now compare that with the superko rule, which covers very rare circumstances,
Superko covers
1) what the basic ko rule covers and results in low or high strategic complexity,
2) what the basic ko rule does not cover and has low strategic complexity,
3) what the basic ko rule does not cover and has high strategic complexity.

You describe superko as something only covering (3) but it also covers (1) and (2)!
which demands an artificial victory condition
No. Superko does not contain any victory condition. Like the basic ko rule, superko has a condition restricting repetition.
the basic Kos are fun while tracking for superko positions is not fun.
Every player has his preferences of what aspects of the game are, or are not, fun for him. You have desribed yours. My fun includes cycles of length 2 and cycles of lengths 3+ but excludes escapers.

Regardless of personal preference, again please clarify: how to have rules that always describe the game (not only in basic kos) and avoid tracking for superko positions?

- Superko requires tracking for superko positions.
- No-result requires tracking for superko positions.
- The Basic-Fixed Ko Rules require tracking for superko positions.

All rules that always describe the game need tracking for superko positions.
There are tradeoffs in designing board games. The very small possibility of a perpetual cycle
I do not know what you mean by "perpetual cycle". Each situational cycle is perpetual. In particular, the 2-play cycle of a basic ko is perpetual.
The possibility of mugging each other for aeons does not need to be covered by the rules, it can be mentioned in an explanation of the game.
(Beginner) explanations can pretend to hide some rules but they are rules nevertheless.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by Javaness2 »

I still have a great fondness for the approach supposedly used in Tibetan go. You cannot place a stone on an intersection where, on the previous turn, a captured stone rested.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by John Fairbairn »

Cassandra: I did say I would leave this thread, knowing the way it will go, but you are not RJ so I'll allow myself a fond hope that you may listen.
Regarding a cycle, there is nothing difficult to remember, especially in the case of enforced ones. Probably the one or the other player will need more than only one pass to realise, but even the very most unexperienced player will -- sooner or later.
The problem here is that you are assuming everyone can, and wants to, think in terms of cycles. This is most definitely not the case, and I believe that it is a vast majority of us who do not want to think in such terms.

Take the sentence: "It is common." Each word may be likened to a go move. It is very easy to follow the sequence, and even to remember the sentence, and to understand it. We can change it to "It is not uncommon." This may be likened to a ko (a double negative). We'd find this quite easy to understand, but many people will be on their guard - is there a subtle difference intended? After all "not bad" often does not mean "good" - it usually means "very, very good". This may be likened to a bent four in the corner kind of ko. Still a simple one, but with strings attached.

Then we can go on to a double ko: "It is not unlikely that it is not uncommon." Relying, if I may, on my memory, I assert that it has been shown many times by researchers that even that low level of complexity of double negatives in language confuses most people, and has absolutely nothing to do with how intelligent they are. It's just the way our brains work. In fact, we are all so intelligent that we know exactly what is meant when a double negative is used for a single negative: "I ain't dun nuthin'".

If I go on to a triple ko and say "It is impossible that it is not unlikely that it is not uncommon", I can confidently say - despite having invented that sentence, finding it easy to remember and understanding each individual word (i.e. move) perfectly - that I have absolutely no idea what it means. More importantly, in real life I would never be willing, unless paid, to try and work out what it might mean - I say "might" because even if I think I can work out the meaning, I'd still be suspicious that the composer of the sentence was up to some shenanigans (which, here, I am; QED).

We see something similar in computer programming with recursion. Some people take to it like a duck to water. Most people baulk at it. Indeed, there are even very good programmers who avoid it. It just doesn't feel natural to them, and since understanding your own code is crucial, they take what (for them) is the best way out.

In other words, rules mavens have to get it into their heads that very many people (probably most) do not think they way they do. They do not and never will see a ko as a cycle. A "cycle of 2" is gibberish to them (is it a bicycle, a tandem). In fact, I don't think it is even good English. I remember asking on rec.games.go what a "cycle hit" might be, because it appeared in a go book, translated I think by Bob Terry. We had enough context to know it was a baseball term. Yet not a single American there, as I recall, was able to tell us what it was. The tone was: what on earth have cycles got to do with baseball? I found out later that the usual phrase is "hit for the cycle" and it refers to getting four hits that take you respectively to 1st base, 2nd base, 3rd base and home. But in any order. So where does the cycle come in? Then of course the rules mavens chime in as well. Does getting first base on a non-intentional walk count as a base hit? The batter has skilfully worked his way there by not swinging and missing, after all. Does getting first base through hit by pitch count? It's a hit, after all. Etc, etc. All this ignorance, inconsistency, intransigence is not uncommon for humans - and it's fun. We should expect fun in go, too.

As the title of this thread should remind us, the goal is good game design. It's seems a no-brainer to me that the design should be tailored to the way a very large proportion of the potential players will think (will, not can) if you want to have any measure of success. A cycle of 2 is as far as you should go but you must never call it that. You must present it as a rule in the form we are all used to from toddlerhood: you must wait a move before recapturing in a ko. Just as we say, you must brush your teeth when you get up and before you go to bed. We NEVER say: You must brush your teeth on a 12-hour cycle. You must wait for the traffic light to turn to green. Never, you must wait for the cycle of red-amber-green to be completed.
Every Go player who has a bit experience, is able to correctly remember Jôseki, so no Go player at all will have any difficulties in remembering a repeated sequence of 6 moves that just appeared before seconds!
Oh yeah?

Last year (2020-09-08) Mi Yuting took the wrong ko in the 9th Ing Cup versus Ichiriki Ryo. But he's only a Chinese 9-dan.
Shida Tatsuya did the same in a triple ko versus Yu Zhengqi in the Judan (2016-01-07). But he's only a Japanese 8-dan.
Zhao Chenyu and Hong Ki-p'yo (2014-04-18, LG Cup) couldn't remember if a ko threat had been played before a disputed ko capture. As it was the prelims, there was no game record (though one was apparently reconstructed, possibly one-sided). But they are only Chinese and Korean professionals.

Why, some of these professionals are so weak they can't even remember (with plenty of time on the clock) that they haven't made a ko threat before re-capturing in a ko. Some are so dim that they can't even remember whether the opponent has made a move and so they end up making the brilliant two moves in a row tesuji which our brilliant amateurs struggle to learn.

Some can't even remember to press their clock. Some can't even remember what the komi is.

Goodness me, Cho Hun-hyeon couldn't even remember the most basic rules of go and played a suicide move (2003-10-02). But, of course, he was only the world's best player.

So again, the rules mavens do have to remember that not all potential go players are brilliant amateur mathematicians - BAMs) with young brains unencumbered by real go knowledge, unlike these real 9-dans, and with time on their hands.

I'd like to say more, but I can't remember what we are really talking about.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by RobertJasiek »

Mostly igoring meta-discussion about RJ (meaning me), allegedly not listening people, mavens and linguistics, just let me point out that "a cycle of 2" is not a phrase used by rules experts but "a cycle of length 2" aka "a cycle of 2 moves" is.

Most wordings of a basic ko rule, superko rule, Basic-Fixed Ko Rule or no-result ko rule(s) do not use the word cycle but refer to repetition or recreation. Usage of words in discussion and rule texts differs.

Players not wishing to think in terms of cycles can think in terms of repetition. Every player can because repetition also occurs in reversion of, e.g., joseki sequences or in application of memorised sequences or shapes.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by Cassandra »

John Fairbairn wrote:Cassandra: I did say I would leave this thread, knowing the way it will go, but you are not RJ so I'll allow myself a fond hope that you may listen.
Regarding a cycle, there is nothing difficult to remember, especially in the case of enforced ones. Probably the one or the other player will need more than only one pass to realise, but even the very most unexperienced player will -- sooner or later.
The problem here is that you are assuming everyone can, and wants to, think in terms of cycles. This is most definitely not the case, and I believe that it is a vast majority of us who do not want to think in such terms.
Dear John,

Thank you very much indeed for your posting.
I hope that I read it carefully enough.

I think "cycles" are one thing that naturally strives to come to light during a game of Go.
This has nothing to do with the extent to which a player intends to think EXPLICITLY about "cycles".

-----------------------------

Let us assume for a moment that a game of Go once has been understood as the meeting of two mental capacities that strive for an ideal course of the game (appropriate to their abilities). Just following the adage "The journey is the reward."
Of course, it would not occur to anyone to want to recapture immediately into a just captured ko-shape, or to ever want to repeat a previous position on the board. Because such an action would not bring any gain in knowledge, but would only be a waste of time.

However, as soon as "winning" became important, the typical human weaknesses would ensure that an immediate recapture into a ko-shape would soon be discovered as a suitable means of not ending the game, and thus at least not letting the opponent win.
Due to the natural frequency of such formations, it was imperative to put an end to this abuse through an explicit ban.

The assessment of the need to prevent further, albeit much rarer, options to not let a game end seemed to differ from culture area to culture area.

------------------------------
John Fairbairn wrote:Last year (2020-09-08) Mi Yuting took the wrong ko in the 9th Ing Cup versus Ichiriki Ryo. But he's only a Chinese 9-dan.
Shida Tatsuya did the same in a triple ko versus Yu Zhengqi in the Judan (2016-01-07). But he's only a Japanese 8-dan.
Zhao Chenyu and Hong Ki-p'yo (2014-04-18, LG Cup) couldn't remember if a ko threat had been played before a disputed ko capture. As it was the prelims, there was no game record (though one was apparently reconstructed, possibly one-sided). But they are only Chinese and Korean professionals.
All of this probably wouldn't have happened if the players hadn't been so keen to WIN, would it? :razz:
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by John Fairbairn »

The assessment of the need to prevent further, albeit much rarer, options to not let a game end seemed to differ from culture area to culture area.
We can agree that an ordinary ko is a feature, not a bug. As to more complex ones, I disagree that the assessment of the need to handle them differs from culture to culture. I think it differs according to whether you are a passionate numbers guy or not. Most of us, worldwide, are not, and see either no need or little need for special intrinsic rules. The exceptional cases can all be handled by tournament rules (replays, half-points, coin tosses), as experience has shown.

It's a rough estimate, but the GoGoD database has about 40 triple kos in 112,000 games or say once in 3,000 games in professional play. That's in the context of about 7,000~8,0000 pro games a year. The database frequency is higher than the real frequency because these games can be regarded as more "collectable" (against that, there must be a few games where triple ko is a factor but does not actually occur).

So let's say 1: 3,000. In pro play. I'd estimate that in amateur play (which is by far the most common form of go) it is many, many, many magnitudes smaller than that. I have never had one or met anyone who had one in over 50 years of go.

How many people do you see building a reinforced concrete shelter over their houses in case an aeroplane or asteroid drops on them out of the sky? And that, unlike go, really is a matter of life & death. The dinosaurs might see it differently, but most people would still see such shelters as overkill. And BAD design.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by RobertJasiek »

Handling of a game result as split tournament game points, replay or whatever is indeed part of tournament rules but the stipulation of what moves are (il)legal is part of the rules of play.

Triple ko can be mentioned all the time but the fact remains that the relatively much more frequent non-standard kos are basic ko with intervening pass and sending-2-returning-1.

Nevertheless, discussing triple ko etc. is fun, so here are my statistics: I had 1 or 2 (not sure if I recall the 2nd correctly), and 2 double ko sekis (both in handicap games as a result of trick play for emergency life) in maybe 60,000 or 70,000 games (wild guess).

But you did meet a player of the only molasses ko ever;)
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by gennan »

One of my biggest issues with superko is that passes don't lift ko bans (at least I think that is the case in common superko variants). That is too restrictive IMO, because it messes up cases where there is no long cycle problem that needs fixing.

For example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . X O O X O X O X |
$$ | X X X O X O O O X |
$$ | X O X O X O O X . |
$$ | O O X O X O X X X |
$$ | . O O O X O O O X |
$$ | O O . O O O O X X |
$$ | 1 O O O X X O O X |
$$ | . X X X X . X X . |
$$ ----------
$$[/go]
Black :b1: just captured a stone. Then white passes (forced) and black passes. If this is played under area scoring rules and black claims his stones are alive, white would resume the game. If it's then black's turn, he passes and it's white's turn.

Then what can white do at this point? As a go player, I see no reason to ban white from capturing black :b1:, proving black dead. But superko would ban white from doing so (although it might depend on the superko variant and the game history, but I guess one could construct positions/situations like this for each of them).

How is that good rules design? Superko may be simple (at least in principle), but it is too simple IMO, because it unneccessarily breaks the game in situations like this. And I think these situations are much more common than the long cycle problems that superko aims to fix, making the cure worse than the disease.
Last edited by gennan on Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by jmeinh »

"Good" or "bad" certainly depends partly on the point of view - more mathematical? or more application-oriented?
In the following, I focus more on the application-oriented point of view.

The guiding principle, that any decision making by the player (where/how to play) need only rely on the existing state of the game (the stones positions) and the last change to that game state (the last stone placed), I actually find quite plausible after some thought.
A practical implementation, which should be free of contradictions, could be analogous to a chess rule: "After three repetitions of a position, the player whose move it is has the right to claim a draw" (roughly and by memory).

Disputes or similar that could be traced back to this rule are not known from chess - at least not to me.

The objection that proving position repetition three times requires bookkeeping cannot be entirely dismissed, but I consider it relative, because calculating a quintuple ko during the game and taking position repetition into account is something different from, for example, noticing after the fourth or fifth repetition of a position that there might be position repetition and from then on starting to write down the following moves.

Would this rule change the character of the game of Go as we know it? The number of jigo games (or "no-result" games; I'll focus on "jigo" for now, for simplicity's sake) would increase (slightly?).

Perhaps the biggest problem would concern the cases of "sending-2-returning-1" under area rules (except for someone who does not see this as a problem at all, but only as a rather minor change in the character of the game).
However, to build an extra rule for these cases I would consider as bad rules design.
The extent to which the character of the game would be changed by such cases most probably depends on how many cases of actual or potential "sending-2-returning-1" occur in practice. However, I don't know any statistics on this and am not at all interested in reading statistics or even compiling them myself.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by Cassandra »

John Fairbairn wrote:How many people do you see building a reinforced concrete shelter over their houses in case an aeroplane or asteroid drops on them out of the sky? And that, unlike go, really is a matter of life & death. The dinosaurs might see it differently, but most people would still see such shelters as overkill. And BAD design.
If you do not want this BAD design for your house, you will have to accept that the STANDARD procedure for building houses does NOT protect against EVERYTHING.

The J89's authors, however, apparently did not want to accept that and gave the impression that they had found a magical STANDARD procedure (for assessing L&D, to be clear) that would help against the unpredictable.

For "play", they already settled both players' insistence on Chôsei (probalility 10-4) with a "draw" result.
(Chôsei = repetition of a board position of at least four moves earlier with the difference of prisoners remaining unchanged.)

For "L&D assessment", they could have presented a collection of specific classes of compound positions (i.e. a collection of historical agreements on these), with a predetermined result each that OVERRIDES the STANDARD prodecure.
-- Class A (probability 10-9): X is alive, Y is dead.
-- Class B (probability 10-10): Y is alive, X is dead.
-- Class C (probability 10-10): Y is alive, x is dead.
-- Class D (probability 10-13): X is alive, Y is dead.

A supplement might have been useful, which declares the game to be "drawn", if both players cannot agree on the result of the STANDARD procedure in any other strange and unlikely compound position.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by kvasir »

jmeinh wrote:Disputes or similar that could be traced back to this rule are not known from chess - at least not to me.
It is not really true that disputes about threefold repetition are rare because correct claims are sometimes (I wrote "often" first but I should rather write "sometimes") unsuccessful.

A claim of threefold repetition is considered to be a draw offer and as such can be accepted by the opponent. Otherwise it is ruled on by the arbiter. The players are required to write down the game until they have less then 5 minutes remaining, after that the arbiter is supposed to take on this responsibility if possible, so the ruling is usually just a matter of checking the records. Now if you correctly claim a draw by threefold repetition and the arbiter is standing right next to you but rules against the claim, what happens is exactly this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P0oKbJcQj0

There are also rules allowing the claiming player to stop the clocks, and penalties. (Which may not apply with the time controls used in the video, just to be clear). Basically, if you wish to claim a threefold repetition you better have some evidence to convince the arbiter. The claim in the video was correct, the players seems to explain what happened very well and the arbiter was right there. Nevertheless this was an unsuccessful claim.

Worst of all - after the game, they don't seem to acknowledge he was right!


====Edit
I just thought I'd add a video of another disputed claim, you can see how this is handled when the records can be consulted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcVIksO2M3k
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