Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game design

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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by Cassandra »

John Fairbairn wrote:The Nihon Ki-in published a pamphlet in 2005 on go etiquette.
Especially inhabitants of the Western World should be very well aware that mankind is extremely good in finding and fully utilising legal loopholes.

There is no stopping water from flowing into the ocean. If one path is blocked, it will find another one.

Trying to prevent abuse of a legal text is like Don Quixote's fight against the windmills. There is not enough paper on this planet for an attempt in this regard (which would be typically Western).
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by CDavis7M »

John Fairbairn wrote:However, back to our muttons and the question of whether a single pass ends ordinary play (it doesn't)...
The game came down to the last half-point and the reader said, "O-tsugi kudasai" (Please connect the ko) which is a common way to end the game in Japanese, and is equivalent to saying Pass...
But the opponent saw an opportunity to win the game on time and refused to connect but played somewhere else...
He did NOT say, "You said Pass, so the game (ordinary play) was over."
Of course Kido did not say that because the game was resumed without rules formalities. This situation where one player thinks the game is over and is ready to proceed with stopping the game ("O-tsugi kudasai"), but the other player thinks that life and death is still an issue (or time is an issue) IS an end-of-game resumption but without formally following the 2nd pass, a resumption demand, and a pass upon resumption.

Making a non-alternative play in response to your opponent declaring that they are ready to proceed with Life & Death confirmation is the same as agreeing to proceed, not agreeing with Life % Death, demanding resumption, the opponent actually passing their turn, and then playing your non-alternative play.
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c :b5: pass, :b7: pass
$$ ---------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . 0 . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . , . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 8 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------[/go]
I bet if we asked Kido whether a player could pass on moves 5 and 7 of a 60 move game just "because", he would have said "No."

Apparently the Japanese tradition does not require strict adherence to the rules as long as there is an understanding between the players. The players can end phases and begin phases of the game without mention of Article 9 or confirming life group by group, as long as they understand each other (or can hear each other without tinnitus). Still, when it comes down to it, the rules are there.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by Pio2001 »

CDavis7M wrote:Or, can anyone try to find where the Japanese rules allow this type of non-alternating play during game-play, not during life-and-death confirmation or end-of-game dame filling & reinforcement. Or try to find some Japanese tradition of playing moves and then deciding to pass for a bit to allow non-alternating play, but then picking alternating play back up again.
Article 9.1 When a player passes his move and his opponent passes in succession, the game stops.

It implies that when a player passes his move and his opponent doesn't pass in succession, the game doesn't stop.
Moreover :
Commentary on article 2.2 To declare that the game should stop, a player passes. If his opponent passes in succession, the game stops and neither player can play next.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by CDavis7M »

Pio2001 wrote:
CDavis7M wrote:Or, can anyone try to find where the Japanese rules allow this type of non-alternating play during game-play, not during life-and-death confirmation or end-of-game dame filling & reinforcement. Or try to find some Japanese tradition of playing moves and then deciding to pass for a bit to allow non-alternating play, but then picking alternating play back up again.
Article 9.1 When a player passes his move and his opponent passes in succession, the game stops.
It implies that when a player passes his move and his opponent doesn't pass in succession, the game doesn't stop.
Moreover :
Commentary on article 2.2 To declare that the game should stop, a player passes. If his opponent passes in succession, the game stops and neither player can play next.
I read the commentary different. 着手放棄(パス)は、放棄者の対局停止宣言であり、続いて相手方もパスした場合は「対局の停止」となり、次の着手を行うことはできない。(第九条1項参照). I read it as stating that the abandoning play (not a pass but is commonly referred to as a pass) IS a declaration to stop. Which happens if both players abandon their move. The concept of an abandoned move (着手放棄) cannot be the same as a pass (パス) otherwise the rules designers would have just said pass.

And we agree that there is no actual rule that allows the player to pass, there is only the rule that the game stops if both players pass. So of course passing is allowed. But in game rules, just because an action is allowed in one situation does not mean that action is allowed in other situations.

Of course the reader should consider the context and read between the lines. So I would agree with you except that allowing "passing your turn" (not in the rules) would violate "alternating play" (one of the only rules for "playing") and "passing your turn" is a different concept from an abandoned move. Also, if there were some situation that necessitated passing, I would of course agree. But there is none.
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John Fairbairn wrote:I've said this already, but have been ignored, so I'll try again here: in the sequence of ordinary play White plays, Black plays, White passes, Black is now allowed to play at once. No shilly-shallying about two passes and resuming play.
Thinking more about this, it reminds me of Japanese grammar and formality, which I am trying to learn. In Japanese you can make a very long statement, but if the context is clear, you can drop a bunch of words. And if formality is not required you can drop more. Of course, many languages can drop context, but Japanese also can drop formality.

So, it seems to me that when White plays, Black play, White passes, and the context of the game is that White is declaring that they want to stop the game because the game has arrived at a plausible end-state, then black may indeed play at once without the formality of passing and then demanding resumption before his play. It seems more polite and more elegant to not demand the formality.
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All I'm saying is that I the Japanese rules don't allow (unnecessary and maybe even rude) passing before the end-of-game. I acknowledge that a play can happen after a pass in a plausible end-of-game state.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by John Fairbairn »

I read the commentary different. I read it as stating that the abandoning play (not a pass but is commonly referred to as a pass) IS a declaration to stop. I don't read this as saying that a player may pass to declare the stop of the game. The concept of an abandoned move (着手放棄) is not the same as a pass (パス) otherwise the rules designers would have just said pass.
How you, or DeepL or whatever it's called, read it is irrelevant. It's how the Japanese read it that matters. A couple of points that you seem to be missing linguistically:

(1) sengen - you have latched onto one the word 'declaration' and sometimes seem to take a typical English nuance: that something has been unilaterally decided. But, whichever way you take it, what is going on in the Japanese is simply that something is being enunciated, made known. Use a Japanese dictionary. Kojien, for example, will tell that it refers to the case where "an individual, organisation or state expresses [hyoumei] its own intention, claim, plicy or such like to outside world." It is a unilateral action.

(2) In comment 2.2, deari is in the continuative form, so the following "if" applies to that clause as well. The English offered by Pio omits and 'also' - if the opponents also makes pass - so the result in the next clause comes from a bilateral action.

(3) The result just mentioned (cessation of play) is described by using the verb phrase 'to naru' (i.e. not 'dearu'). ... to naru (becomes) implies 'changing so as to be'. In other words, the change of state (from ordinary play) takes effect only after the two conditions (Pass 1, Pass 2) just mentioned have been met.

(4) You are fond of the phrase 'abandoned move'. That sounds strange to me. What the Japanese houki refers to is relinquishing the right to put a move on the board ('putting' is what chaku implies). It is not an assertion that play is abandoned as in "match abandoned". Chakushu, incidentally, is a go technical term here. In the normal language it means 'to start'. In a go technical dictionary it is defined as 'Playing a stone. Putting down a move."

(5)
The concept of an abandoned move (着手放棄) cannot be the same as a pass (パス) otherwise the rules designers would have just said pass.
No, because "pasu" is a colloquialism and this is a legal text. In real life next to nobody would say chakushi houki, a very stilted phrase. It is, however, required in a legal context, if for no other reason than to show which of the many senses the borrowing pasu is being used in (and the go sense is by far one of the least common).

(6) Article 2 allows plays to put stones (chakushu) on the board alternately. Comment 1.1 helpfully tells us that the alternation of putting moves on the board is a RIGHT, i.e. not an obligation. That is, on your turn, you can do something else. I have already told you that the debate about whether a board move is a right or an obligation raged for many years in Japan (that is the context, but no context is really needed for this point). In J89 the Nihon Ki-in and Kansai Ki-in nailed their colours firmly to the mast: putting a stone on the board is a RIGHT. In America you have the right to bear arms. That doesn't mean you have to go out and buy a Kalashnikov.
Thinking more about this, it reminds me of Japanese grammar and formality, which I am trying to learn. In Japanese you can make a very long statement with many details while providing the sufficient level of formality for the situation. But when the context is clear, you can drop a bunch of words, and when formality is not required you can do away with even more works. And in Japanese writing you can even drop the hiragana from the kanji. Of course, many languages can drop context, but Japanese also can drop formality.
I think it's best to draw a veil over this paragraph and wait until you have learned some more Japanese. The rules text is in standard dearu neutral form as is usual for legal and technical texts, and I've been translating that kind of stuff for part of my bread and butter for over 50 years. And furigana is used only for children's books, names or rare kanji. It has nothing to do with formality. Reading characters is not very hard if you are a grown-up Japanese.

(7)
So, it seems to me that when White plays, Black play, White passes, and the context is that White is declaring that they want to stop the game because the game has arrived at a plausible end-state, then black may indeed play at once without the formality of passing and then demanding resumption before his play. It seems more polite and more elegant to not demand the formality.
My apologies if I am misreading what you say, but let us assume instead that they do replace the toujours la politesse and elegance with formality (although in Japan formality is usually a necessary part of politeness). The actions would then be White plays, Black plays, White passes, Black passes, Black demands a resumption. You then have Black making first move in the confirmation phase. But that is not allowed. The person making the request for resumption has to let the other side have the right to the first move in the confirmation phase, no?
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by kvasir »

Anyone that has played Go with anyone that played Go with anyone that knew how to play Go knows that you can forgo your turn to play at the end the game. While it can be a valid question how to go about that (i.e. saying "pass") the details just aren't spelled out like that in the NHK rules. If you want an answer to if you are allowed to forgo your turn in the middle of the game to spite your opponent it probably depends more on your intention (or perceived intention) rather than anything else.

The NHK rules do not have much to say about many things -- why not just accept this? I don't see the use in trying to read between the lines and interpret the cultural context when the question is something so remote from anything that the rules document actually says anything about.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by CDavis7M »

kvasir wrote:Anyone that has played Go with anyone that played Go with anyone that knew how to play Go knows that you can forgo your turn to play at the end the game. While it can be a valid question how to go about that (i.e. saying "pass") the details just aren't spelled out like that in the NHK rules.
I agree. All I'm saying is that the rules don't say that you can pass in the beginning/middle of the game.

I'm confused about the backlash. It's not like I'm trying to argue something completely bogus like saying that the Japanese rules are bad because dead stones in would-because territory actually can't be captured in the end of the game because seki doesn't make territory. Anyone who has spoken with someone that has reading comprehension would understand that that's not how the rules work.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by kvasir »

CDavis7M wrote:I'm confused about the backlash. It's not like I'm trying to argue something completely bogus like saying that the Japanese rules are bad because dead stones in would-because territory actually can't be captured in the end of the game because seki doesn't make territory. Anyone who has spoken with someone that has reading comprehension would understand that that's not how the rules work.
It is just the line of investigation that I think is almost futile, the way of trying to read something into words and between the lines. I don't object to the question only that the method used to answer it doesn't appear likely to be fruitful.

I am not sure what you are getting at about dead stones in would-be-territory. Here the rules actually state a condition for when dead stones can be removed from the board at the end of the game, this condition does not allow all dead stones to be removed, and example 25 has dead stones that are not allowed to be removed from the board at the end of the game. I'd be curious to know how you understand example 25 and the commentary on article 8.

Really, I don't know what you mean when you say someone is trying to argue that dead stones can't be captured because seki doesn't make territory. Maybe you have misunderstood something I said in a different topic to the effect that we can consider not accepting life and death confirmation when it leads to dead stones that are not in seki not being removed from the board? I said (or tried to say) something to the effect that this could possibly be considered a contradiction, that is to be too bogus to be accepted.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by CDavis7M »

John Fairbairn wrote:How you, or DeepL or whatever it's called, read it is irrelevant. It's how the Japanese read it that matters.
I use DeepL for reading the historic notes on game commentaries. So I already know that it concatenates phrases and drops whole statements. When I'm reading the Japanese Rules I use jisho.org and 用語小事典 (日本棋院). Unfortunately, 広辞苑 is ¥9,900, which is even more than Games of Shuei. So I'll put my money to better use. As far as "unilateral," "bilateral," and 着手 as a go term, we are on the same page. But I did learn of the "continuative form." Thank you for this discussion of Japanese because I found the difference in interpretation:
John Fairbairn wrote:(4) You are fond of the phrase 'abandoned move'. That sounds strange to me. What the Japanese houki refers to is relinquishing the right to put a move on the board ('putting' is what chaku implies). It is not an assertion that play is abandoned as in "match abandoned". Chakushu, incidentally, is a go technical term here. In the normal language it means 'to start'.
My understanding of 放棄 comes from jisho (it's not in yogo shojiten). Jisho gives the definition of 放棄 as "abandonment; renunciation; resignation; abdication (responsibility, right [ie failure to fulfill responsibility, right])." None of these terms suggest handing something over, but "relinquish" can definitely have that meaning in some cases. So if that is the case here then I was mistaken. Free Jisho.org can't compete with ¥9,900 worth of Kojien.

Unfortunately, calling 着手 is a "right" goes back to making it confusing as "relinquishing a right to play" seems more like "failure to fulfill a right to play," rather than relinquishing your play to your opponent. I imagine that the debate between "right" or "obligation" involved Life and Death. In which case, all of the passing for Life and Death was moved to the "confirmation" stage after stopping the game. There, playing is not an obligation. In fact, passing is an obligation. So does the statement that playing is a "right" just mean that this "right vs obligation" debate has been settled (using life and death confirmation) or does it really mean that a player can pass, pass, pass in the middle of the game? Needless passing doesn't seem be part of a contest of skill.

Update: I checked 5 (free) Japanese to English dictionaries online and most give the same definition as Jisho. But Cambridge does mention relinquishing a right:
放棄

noun

(ほうき)

捨て去ること
abandonment
責任を放棄する
to relinquish one’s responsibility
Synonym
放り出す
This is failure to fulfill. Not handing over.

Going deeper:
https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%A8%A9%E5%88%A9

Now reading Japanese online discussion about the権利 to play certain moves in a given board position, which is basically just 先手 (their words)
... Well I'm done. Further back then when I started.
https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/sitepolicy/link.html
Last edited by CDavis7M on Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by CDavis7M »

kvasir wrote:Maybe you have misunderstood something I said
No, it wasn't you. I should have been more clear. It was someone else's bogus claim. And the bogus statement wasn't about actual seki, but pretend-seki in an attempt to discredit the Japanese Rules. I was on Sensei's Library and went down a rabbit hole. Maybe you can guess.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by RobertJasiek »

CDavis7M wrote:All I'm saying is that the rules don't say that you can pass in the beginning/middle of the game.

I'm confused about the backlash.
One can make an argument in favour of pass being prohibited during opening and middle game. Not because of the rules of play but because of the tournament rules contained in J1989. The required spirit of good sense and mutual trust, or sportsmanlike behaviour as Western tournament rules might say, implies that "compete in skill" and the aim of the game in §1 (to be corrected by prisoners) requires players to attempt seeking good moves, an early pass is an obviously bad move so is prohibited.

However, you have claimed more than that: the single passes might not occur until a game stop. This is where you get opposition.

Old Japanese rules had and Korean rules had and maybe still have no or no clear passes or single passes. J1989 change this, although the wording is still ambiguous.
It's not like I'm trying to argue something completely bogus like saying that the Japanese rules are bad
They are:
http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/j1989c.html
http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/wagcflaw.html
because dead stones in would-because territory actually can't be captured in the end of the game because seki doesn't make territory.
This is all real-world Japanese rules. (Some badly programmed go server rules, such as KGS-Japanese Rules, differ. Maybe you have been under their false impression when judging on real-world rules.)

(WAGC Rules demand clarification of "in the end of the game" because there is a special procedure for optional but recommended removal such dead stones when the game is about to end. If the players don't remove, then afterwards they may not remove.)
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by jann »

RobertJasiek wrote:
CDavis7M wrote:All I'm saying is that the rules don't say that you can pass in the beginning/middle of the game.

I'm confused about the backlash.
...
However, you have claimed more than that: the single passes might not occur until a game stop. This is where you get opposition.
because dead stones in would-because territory actually can't be captured in the end of the game because seki doesn't make territory.
This is all real-world Japanese rules.
BTW, one thing I'm not sure if even Robert is aware of is that "no territory in seki" (where "no dead stone removal from seki" rule come from) is more than just caprice of Japanese rules.

It's kind of a theoretical necessity for pure territory scoring because of some issues with game end and scoring that could otherwise arise in some shapes. Hybrid scoring (pass stone playout) rules have no such problem and need no seki exception because they are already in area phase by then.
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by RobertJasiek »

What is "pure territory scoring"?
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by jann »

Not using area phase (pass stone playout).
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Re: Superko rules and ko-cycles rules are BAD board game des

Post by RobertJasiek »

I am afraid I do not understand. Please explain positively!
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