J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:13 pm

L&D Example 25

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +------------------------------------ $$ | . B . Z W X . . | ? B ? # W X ? ? | $$ | B B B W W X . . | B B B W W X ? ? | $$ | P B W . W X . . | @ B W ? W X ? ? | $$ | . W W W W X . . | ? W W W W X ? ? | $$ | W W X X X X . . | W W X X X X ? ? | $$ | X X X . . . . . | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | . . . . . . . . | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | . . . . . . . . | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ +----------------–-------------------[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

Black's five stones are of the 7.1.U-type.

White's eleven stones are of the 7.1.U-type.

Black's single stone is of the 7.1.C-type.

White's single stone is of the 7.1.C-type.

Misleading!
J89's comment on L&D Example 25 should be an INCORRECT follow-up of the correct (!) initial version.

Black's single stone is of the 7.1.D-type.

White's single stone is of the 7.1.D-type.

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Why

?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W :w3: pass; :b4: pass; :w7: pass; :b8: pass $$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------ $$ | , X 1 X O X , , | , X O , O X , , | , X O 6 O X , , | , X , X O X , , | $$ | X X X O O X , , | X X X O O X , , | X X X O O X , , | X X X O O X , , | $$ | O X O , O X , , | , X O , O X , , | 5 X O , O X , , | O X O , O X , , | $$ | 2 O O O O X , , | X O O O O X , , | X O O O O X , , | , O O O O X , , | $$ | O O X X X X , , | O O X X X X , , | O O X X X X , , | O O X X X X , , | $$ | X X X , , , , , | X X X , , , , , | X X X , , , , , | X X X , , , , , | $$ | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | $$ | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | $$ +-----------------------------------------------------------------------–[/go]

Why

?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B :b3: pass; :w4: pass; :b7: pass; :w8: pass $$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------ $$ | , X 2 X O X , , | , X O , O X , , | , X O 5 O X , , | , X , X O X , , | $$ | X X X O O X , , | X X X O O X , , | X X X O O X , , | X X X O O X , , | $$ | O X O , O X , , | , X O , O X , , | 6 X O , O X , , | O X O , O X , , | $$ | 1 O O O O X , , | X O O O O X , , | X O O O O X , , | , O O O O X , , | $$ | O O X X X X , , | O O X X X X , , | O O X X X X , , | O O X X X X , , | $$ | X X X , , , , , | X X X , , , , , | X X X , , , , , | X X X , , , , , | $$ | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | $$ | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | $$ +-----------------------------------------------------------------------–[/go]

=============================================[/color]
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Why

?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W :w3: pass (for ko); :b4: pass (NOT for ko) $$ +------------------------------------------------------ $$ | ? X 1 X O X ? ? | ? X O M O X ? ? | ? X O M O X ? ? | $$ | X X X O O X ? ? | X X X O O X ? ? | X X X O O X ? ? | $$ | O X O ? O X ? ? | T X O ? O X ? ? | ? X O ? O X ? ? | $$ | 2 O O O O X ? ? | X O O O O X ? ? | B O O O O X ? ? | $$ | O O X X X X ? ? | O O X X X X ? ? | O O X X X X ? ? | $$ | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ +------------------------------------------------------[/go]

Why

?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B :b3: pass (for ko); :w4: pass (NOT for ko) $$ +------------------------------------------------------ $$ | ? X 2 X O X ? ? | ? X O T O X ? ? | ? X W ? O X ? ? | $$ | X X X O O X ? ? | X X X O O X ? ? | X X X O O X ? ? | $$ | O X O ? O X ? ? | M X O ? O X ? ? | M X O ? O X ? ? | $$ | 1 O O O O X ? ? | X O O O O X ? ? | X O O O O X ? ? | $$ | O O X X X X ? ? | O O X X X X ? ? | O O X X X X ? ? | $$ | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ +------------------------------------------------------[/go]

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ERRONEOUS comment???

The comment explains why both single stones are "dead" (i.e. due to the double-ko cycles displayed above).

The comment claims these single stones being "seki stones".

However, this is a CONTRADICTION IN TERMS, because

The legal text defines "alive stones".

The legal text defines "eye".

The legal text defines "dame" as all empty points other than "eyes".

The legal text defines "seki stones" as "ALIVE stones" that have (i.e. are neighboured to) "dame".

---------------------------

The comment claims that these single stones must not be taken off the board as captives, because they are NEIGHBOURED to "dame", and NOT NEIGHBOURED to (opponent's) "territory".

The comment claims that these single stones become "seki stones" as they are (what is a contradiction to the legal text, see above).

However, this does NOT follow the mechanism that is defined in the legal text!

The legal text defines "territory" as the "eyes" of "alive stones", which are NOT "seki stones".

The legal text defines stones that can be taken off the board as they are as captives, as being INSIDE (opponent's) "territory".

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:43 am

L&D Example 23

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +-------------------------- $$ | . P . P P B . P X . . . | $$ | P B P . P B . P X X . . | $$ | . B B P P B B B O X . . | $$ | B . B B B O O O O X . . | $$ | P P B O O . . . . . . . | $$ | P B B O . . . . . . . . | $$ | B B O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +--------------------------[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

Black's stones are of the 7.1.U-type.

White's stones are of the 7.1.D-type.

However, ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B :b9: pass-for-ko $$ +---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- $$ | ? O ? O O X ? O X ? ? ? | 4 O 5 O O X ? O X ? ? ? | 7 6 X O O X ? O X ? ? ? | 0 O ? O O X ? O X ? ? ? | O O ? W W X ? W X ? ? ? | $$ | O X O ? O X ? O X X ? ? | O X O ? O X ? O X X ? ? | 8 X O ? O X ? O X X ? ? | O X O ? O X ? O X X ? ? | O X W ? W X ? W X X ? ? | $$ | ? X X O O X X X O X ? ? | 3 X X O O X X X O X ? ? | X X X O O X X X O X ? ? | X X X O O X X X O X ? ? | X X X W W X X X O X ? ? | $$ | X 1 X X X O O O O X ? ? | X X X X X O O O O X ? ? | X X X X X O O O O X ? ? | X X X X X O O O O X ? ? | X X X X X O O O O X ? ? | $$ | O O X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | 2 ? X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O ? X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O ? X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O ? X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | O X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ +----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/go]

... J89's intended result CANNOT be reached with the already known procedures!
White's stones at the upper edge would remain uncapturable, due to the cycle in the corner.[/color]

Implicit understanding:
The "sending three, returning two" cycle in the corner is considered inappropriate for establishing Chôsei for White's stones at the top.

The commentary to this example refers to the purpose of the game of Go, stated in Article 1 of the legal text, which is "a competition for more or less territory".
Article 10, Clause 2 clarifies that prisoners reduce opponent's territory.

During actual PLAY, the cycle in the corner would not run forever, as Black benefits by one surplus prisoner per pass. This cycle is clearly DISADVANTAGEOUS for White.

However, during STATUS CONFIRMATION, captured stones do NOT count.
Nevertheless, and similar to implicit Japanese understanding that the assessment of the L&D-status of a group should not depend on a ko-fight, it seems to be implicit Japanese understanding that the assessment of the L&D-status of a group should not depend on such "fake" (with regard to actual PLAY) Chôsei.

This implies that we could introduce a "pass-for-Chôsei" as an indication that the IMMEDIATE repetion of such "fake" cycle is forbidden.
Similar to "pass-for-ko" being an indicator that the IMMEDIATE recapture into a ko-shape is forbidden.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 :w10: "pass-for-Chôsei"; :w12: pass-for-ko; :w14: pass-for-ko"; :w16: pass; :w18: pass $$ +-------------------------- $$ | 1 O 3 O O X 9 O X ? ? ? | $$ | O X O 5 O X 7 O X X ? ? | $$ | X X X O O X X X O X ? ? | $$ | X X X X X O O O O X ? ? | $$ | O ? X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | ? X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |[/go]

So, Black could capture all of White's stones at the top.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +-------------------------- $$ | 1 O . O O X . O X . . . | $$ | O X O . O X . O X X . . | $$ | . X X O O X X X O X . . | $$ | X . X X X O O O O X . . | $$ | O O X O O . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +--------------------------[/go]

As mentioned in the commentary, a White move in the corner during actual play would turn the position into a seki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm2 :w9: pass $$ +---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- $$ | O O ? O O X ? O X ? ? ? | O O 5 O O X ? O X ? ? ? | a 6 X O O X ? O X ? ? ? | ? O ? O O X ? O X ? ? ? | ? O ? O O X ? O X ? ? ? | $$ | O X O ? O X ? O X X ? ? | O X O ? O X ? O X X ? ? | 7 X O ? O X ? O X X ? ? | X X O ? O X ? O X X ? ? | X X O ? O X ? O X X ? ? | $$ | ? X X O O X X X O X ? ? | 3 X X O O X X X O X ? ? | X X X O O X X X O X ? ? | X X X O O X X X O X ? ? | X X X O O X X X O X ? ? | $$ | X 1 X X X O O O O X ? ? | X X X X X O O O O X ? ? | X X X X X O O O O X ? ? | X X X X X O O O O X ? ? | X X X X X O O O O X ? ? | $$ | O O X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | 2 4 X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | 0 1 X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | O X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | 9 X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ +----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/go]

Thereafter, Black could capture nine White stones (with

,

), while White would capture one Black stones (with

) in return.

Please note that in the status confirmation, Black would be unable to play

at A, as he thereafter lacked the time for "pass-for-ko" enabling him to recapture in the corner.

CDavis7M · Post by **CDavis7M** » Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:27 pm

Cassandra wrote:L&D Example 2
...
Misleading!
J89's comment on L&D Example 2 ALSO describes as a "newly created stone that cannot be captured".
But has NOT been played AFTER White captured his stones in the corner.

So this should be an UNADAPTED RELIC of the initial version ("if capturing ... enables ..."; i.e. "if THE PROCESS of capturing ... enables ...").

Cassandra wrote:L&D Example 4
...
J89's sequence on L&D Example 4 ends with the position at left.
But NO White stone has been played AFTER Black captured her stones at the top.
So this should be an UNADAPTED RELIC of the initial version ("if capturing ... enables ..."; i.e. "if THE PROCESS of capturing ... enables ...").[/color]

There seems to be an implicit misunderstanding. I don't read any requirement in Article 7-1 (or elsewhere) of the Japanese Rules for the new stones that cannot be captured to have been placed after the stones have been captured. Where in the rules do you think it says so? If anything, Example 1 shows new stones that cannot be captured that are only placed after stones are captured and Example 4 shows new uncapturable White stones that are only placed before the other White stones are captured. So the interpretation of the Rules should allow for the new uncapturable stones to be placed before and/or after the capturing. This is a valid interpretation of "又は取られても新たに相手方に取られない石を生じうる石".

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Cassandra wrote:Commentary
...
7.2.Y+R-type of ko
...
Misleading!
The specification of the corner is NOT required for because there is only ONE ko-shape to be re-captured into.
...
Misleading!
The specification of the corner is NEITHER required for NOR for because there is only ONE ko-shape each to be re-captured into.
...
L&D Example 7-2
Misleading!
The specification of the corner IS REQUIRED for (but missing) because there are TWO ko-shapes to be re-captured into.
...
L&D Example 8
...
Misleading!
The specification of the ko-shape IS REQUIRED for (but missing, probably because it does not matter here) because there are TWO ko-shapes to be re-captured into.

If failing to specify the ko wouldn't change the result then by definition the Examples are not "misleading" because there is no wrong idea or impression that can be taken. I'm not sure what you were trying to do there.

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Cassandra wrote:L&D Example 8
...
MISTAKE in J89's INITIAL version???
...
First attempt.

$$B :b3: pass; :w4: pass; :b7: pass; :w8: pass
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , |
$$ | O O , , , , , | O O , , , , , | O O , , , , , | O O , , , , , |
$$ | X O , , , , , | X O , , , , , | X O , , , , , | X O , , , , , |
$$ | , X O O O , , | , X O O O , , | , X O O O , , | , X O O O , , |
$$ | X X X X O , , | X X X X O , , | X X X X O , , | X X X X O , , |
$$ | O X 2 X O , , | , X O X O , , | 6 X O X O , , | O X , X O , , |
$$ | 1 O X O X , , | X O , O X , , | X O 5 O X , , | , O X O X , , |
$$ | O O O O X , , | O O O O X , , | O O O O X , , | O O O O X , , |
$$ | , O X X X , , | , O X X X , , | , O X X X , , | , O X X X , , |
$$ | O O X , , , , | O O X , , , , | O O X , , , , | O O X , , , , |
$$ | X X X , , , , | X X X , , , , | X X X , , , , | X X X , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , |
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b3: pass; :w4: pass; :b7: pass; :w8: pass $$ +---------------------------------------------------------------- $$ | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | $$ | O O , , , , , | O O , , , , , | O O , , , , , | O O , , , , , | $$ | X O , , , , , | X O , , , , , | X O , , , , , | X O , , , , , | $$ | , X O O O , , | , X O O O , , | , X O O O , , | , X O O O , , | $$ | X X X X O , , | X X X X O , , | X X X X O , , | X X X X O , , | $$ | O X 2 X O , , | , X O X O , , | 6 X O X O , , | O X , X O , , | $$ | 1 O X O X , , | X O , O X , , | X O 5 O X , , | , O X O X , , | $$ | O O O O X , , | O O O O X , , | O O O O X , , | O O O O X , , | $$ | , O X X X , , | , O X X X , , | , O X X X , , | , O X X X , , | $$ | O O X , , , , | O O X , , , , | O O X , , , , | O O X , , , , | $$ | X X X , , , , | X X X , , , , | X X X , , , , | X X X , , , , | $$ | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | $$ | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | $$ +----------------------------------------------------------------[/go]
AFTER White's single stone in the double-ko has been captured, NO (new) PERMANENT White stone can be played, due to J89's (initial version) double-ko cycle.

Maybe there is no requirement for the uncapturable stone to be placed after the capturing? Maybe it is enough to show that the new stones retaking the kos before capturing Black cannot be captured. The same goes for Example 16.

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Cassandra wrote:L&D Example 18
...
$$W :b2: pass; :b8: pass; :b10: pass; :b14: pass; :b16: pass; :b18: pass; :b20: pass; :w21: pass; :b22: pass; :b24: pass
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | 1 O 3 X O X O ? ? ? ? | 9 5 2 X O X O ? ? ? ? | 3 5 X X O X O ? ? ? ? | O O ? ? O X O ? ? ? ? | O O M M O M O ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O X X X O X O O ? ? ? | 1 X X X O X O O ? ? ? | 7 X X X O X O O ? ? ? | O ? ? ? O X O O ? ? ? | O M M M O M O O ? ? ? |
$$ | 4 X O O O X X O O ? ? | X X O O O X X O O ? ? | X X O O O X X O O ? ? | ? ? O O O X X O O ? ? | M M O O O M M O O ? ? |
$$ | X X O O ? O X X O ? ? | X X O O 6 O X X O ? ? | X X O O X M X X O ? ? | ? ? O O X 3 X X O ? ? | M M O O ? O M M O ? ? |
$$ | O O O ? O X ? X O ? ? | O O O ? O X ? X O ? ? | O O O ? O X ? X O ? ? | O O O ? O X 5 X O ? ? | O O O ? O M O M O ? ? |
$$ | X X O O X ? X X O ? ? | X X O O X 7 X X O ? ? | X X O O T O X X O ? ? | X X O O 9 O X X O ? ? | X X O O O O M M O ? ? |
$$ | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X X O O M M O ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------–-
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b2: pass; :b8: pass; :b10: pass; :b14: pass; :b16: pass; :b18: pass; :b20: pass; :w21: pass; :b22: pass; :b24: pass $$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ $$ | 1 O 3 X O X O ? ? ? ? | 9 5 2 X O X O ? ? ? ? | 3 5 X X O X O ? ? ? ? | O O ? ? O X O ? ? ? ? | O O M M O M O ? ? ? ? | $$ | O X X X O X O O ? ? ? | 1 X X X O X O O ? ? ? | 7 X X X O X O O ? ? ? | O ? ? ? O X O O ? ? ? | O M M M O M O O ? ? ? | $$ | 4 X O O O X X O O ? ? | X X O O O X X O O ? ? | X X O O O X X O O ? ? | ? ? O O O X X O O ? ? | M M O O O M M O O ? ? | $$ | X X O O ? O X X O ? ? | X X O O 6 O X X O ? ? | X X O O X M X X O ? ? | ? ? O O X 3 X X O ? ? | M M O O ? O M M O ? ? | $$ | O O O ? O X ? X O ? ? | O O O ? O X ? X O ? ? | O O O ? O X ? X O ? ? | O O O ? O X 5 X O ? ? | O O O ? O M O M O ? ? | $$ | X X O O X ? X X O ? ? | X X O O X 7 X X O ? ? | X X O O T O X X O ? ? | X X O O 9 O X X O ? ? | X X O O O O M M O ? ? | $$ | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X X O O M M O ? ? ? | $$ | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | $$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ +----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------–-[/go]
...
MISTAKE in J89's INITIAL version???

$$B
$$ +------------------------
$$ | , W , B W B O , , , , |
$$ | W B B B W B O O , , , |
$$ | , B W W W B B O O , , |
$$ | B B W W , P B B O , , |
$$ | W W W , W B , B O , , |
$$ | X X W W Z , B X O , , |
$$ | , X X W W B B O , , , |
$$ | , , X X X O O O , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ +----------------------–-
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ +------------------------ $$ | , W , B W B O , , , , | $$ | W B B B W B O O , , , | $$ | , B W W W B B O O , , | $$ | B B W W , P B B O , , | $$ | W W W , W B , B O , , | $$ | X X W W Z , B X O , , | $$ | , X X W W B B O , , , | $$ | , , X X X O O O , , , | $$ | , , , , , , , , , , , | $$ | , , , , , , , , , , , | $$ +----------------------–-[/go]
This diagram shows the CORRECT judgement when applying J89's initial version of the L&D status confirmation.

Why ?

$$W :b4: pass; :w5: pass; :b8: pass; :w9: pass
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | 1 O , X O X O , , , , | O O , X O X O , , , , | O O , X O X O , , , , | O O , X O X O , , , , | O O , B O B O , , , , |
$$ | O X X X O X O O , , , | O X X X O X O O , , , | O X X X O X O O , , , | O X X X O X O O , , , | O B B B O B O O , , , |
$$ | , X O O O X X O O , , | , X O O O X X O O , , | , X O O O X X O O , , | , X O O O X X O O , , | , B O O O B B O O , , |
$$ | X X O O 2 O X X O , , | X X O O X , X X O , , | X X O O X 7 X X O , , | X X O O , O X X O , , | B B O O , O B B O , , |
$$ | O O O , O X , X O , , | O O O , O X , X O , , | O O O , O X , X O , , | O O O , O X , X O , , | O O O , O B , B O , , |
$$ | X X O O X 3 X X O , , | X X O O , O X X O , , | X X O O 6 O X X O , , | X X O O X , X X O , , | X X O O X , B B O , , |
$$ | , X X O O X X O , , , | , X X O O X X O , , , | , X X O O X X O , , , | , X X O O X X O , , , | , X X O O B B O , , , |
$$ | , , X X X O O O , , , | , , X X X O O O , , , | , , X X X O O O , , , | , , X X X O O O , , , | , , X X X O O O , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------–-
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b4: pass; :w5: pass; :b8: pass; :w9: pass $$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ $$ | 1 O , X O X O , , , , | O O , X O X O , , , , | O O , X O X O , , , , | O O , X O X O , , , , | O O , B O B O , , , , | $$ | O X X X O X O O , , , | O X X X O X O O , , , | O X X X O X O O , , , | O X X X O X O O , , , | O B B B O B O O , , , | $$ | , X O O O X X O O , , | , X O O O X X O O , , | , X O O O X X O O , , | , X O O O X X O O , , | , B O O O B B O O , , | $$ | X X O O 2 O X X O , , | X X O O X , X X O , , | X X O O X 7 X X O , , | X X O O , O X X O , , | B B O O , O B B O , , | $$ | O O O , O X , X O , , | O O O , O X , X O , , | O O O , O X , X O , , | O O O , O X , X O , , | O O O , O B , B O , , | $$ | X X O O X 3 X X O , , | X X O O , O X X O , , | X X O O 6 O X X O , , | X X O O X , X X O , , | X X O O X , B B O , , | $$ | , X X O O X X O , , , | , X X O O X X O , , , | , X X O O X X O , , , | , X X O O X X O , , , | , X X O O B B O , , , | $$ | , , X X X O O O , , , | , , X X X O O O , , , | , , X X X O O O , , , | , , X X X O O O , , , | , , X X X O O O , , , | $$ | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | $$ | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | $$ +----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------–-[/go]
[/color]

I can't even begin to guess what you are trying to do with Example 18 but this has no relation to the Rules or the other examples. The point of Example 18 is that 隅の曲り四目, 両劫ゼキ, and セキ崩れ are already defined and no further assessment is needed. If the Life and Death of the position in Example 18 were to be assessed according to the other Examples, I think it that this position having Bent 4 and Double Ko would work similar to the Bent 4 and Double Ko Example in Article 7-2 where the ko passed for is the ko of the stones being assessed (Bent 4). Then the double ko seki would collapse.

--------------------

Cassandra wrote:L&D Example 25
...
$$B :b3: pass (for ko); :w4: pass (NOT for ko)
$$ +------------------------------------------------------
$$ | ? X 2 X O X ? ? | ? X O T O X ? ? | ? X W ? O X ? ? |
$$ | X X X O O X ? ? | X X X O O X ? ? | X X X O O X ? ? |
$$ | O X O ? O X ? ? | M X O ? O X ? ? | M X O ? O X ? ? |
$$ | 1 O O O O X ? ? | X O O O O X ? ? | X O O O O X ? ? |
$$ | O O X X X X ? ? | O O X X X X ? ? | O O X X X X ? ? |
$$ | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +------------------------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b3: pass (for ko); :w4: pass (NOT for ko) $$ +------------------------------------------------------ $$ | ? X 2 X O X ? ? | ? X O T O X ? ? | ? X W ? O X ? ? | $$ | X X X O O X ? ? | X X X O O X ? ? | X X X O O X ? ? | $$ | O X O ? O X ? ? | M X O ? O X ? ? | M X O ? O X ? ? | $$ | 1 O O O O X ? ? | X O O O O X ? ? | X O O O O X ? ? | $$ | O O X X X X ? ? | O O X X X X ? ? | O O X X X X ? ? | $$ | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | $$ +------------------------------------------------------[/go]
ERRONEOUS comment???

The comment explains why both single stones are "dead" (i.e. due to the double-ko cycles displayed above).
The comment claims these single stones being "seki stones".

However, this is a CONTRADICTION IN TERMS, because

The legal text defines "alive stones".
The legal text defines "eye".
The legal text defines "dame" as all empty points other than "eyes".
The legal text defines "seki stones" as "ALIVE stones" that have (i.e. are neighboured to) "dame".

---------------------------

The comment claims that these single stones must not be taken off the board as captives, because they are NEIGHBOURED to "dame", and NOT NEIGHBOURED to (opponent's) "territory".
The comment claims that these single stones become "seki stones" as they are (what is a contradiction to the legal text, see above).

However, this does NOT follow the mechanism that is defined in the legal text!

The legal text defines "territory" as the "eyes" of "alive stones", which are NOT "seki stones".
The legal text defines stones that can be taken off the board as they are as captives, as being INSIDE (opponent's) "territory".

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding here. The single black and white ko-stones are dead stones. This is why points "a" and "b" are dame (they are not surrounded by living stones of one player). The fact that a and b are dame was already discussed in the comments to Article 8. Points a and b being dame is why the 6 black stones (including the single black stone) are living seki stones. Yes, the single black ko-stone (黒一子) is deemed a dead stone when its life and death is assessed, but the 6 black stones (黒六子) including the one ko-stone are deemed alive when their life and death is assessed. 黒六子 have dame and so are seki stones. This is clear to me when reading it in Japanese. There is no discrepancy here. I don't know what rules you are reading.

---------------------------

Cassandra wrote:L&D Example 23
...
J89's intended result CANNOT be reached with the already known procedures!
White's stones at the upper edge would remain uncapturable, due to the cycle in the corner.[/color]

To me, this is a definition that is telling the players to play these moves in the game, just as is done with other board positions. Also, from my review of the Life and Death examples, White would not connect.

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:30 pm

CDavis7M wrote:There seems to be an implicit misunderstanding. I don't read any requirement in Article 7-1 (or elsewhere) of the Japanese Rules for the new stones that cannot be captured to have been placed after the stones have been captured.

Just to give you a comparable example to think about:

"Only if this move is played now, your group that is currently caught in a semeai will be alive."
"Only after this move is played now, your group that is currently caught in a semeai will be alive."

Cause: A move is played.
Effect: A group is alive.

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:19 am

I disagree with your implicit understandings related to ko because these are not the only possible understandings.

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:24 am

RobertJasiek wrote:I disagree with your implicit understandings related to ko because these are not the only possible understandings.

No problem at all!

Understanding A can lead to consistent results, understanding B can lead to consistent results also. As long as these results comply with the intended results of J89's L&D examples, everything is OK.

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:11 am

CDavis7M wrote:The single black and white ko-stones are dead stones. This is why points "a" and "b" are dame (they are not surrounded by living stones of one player). The fact that a and b are dame was already discussed in the comments to Article 8. Points a and b being dame is why the 6 black stones (including the single black stone) are living seki stones. Yes, the single black ko-stone (黒一子) is deemed a dead stone when its life and death is assessed, but the 6 black stones (黒六子) including the one ko-stone are deemed alive when their life and death is assessed. 黒六子 have dame and so are seki stones. This is clear to me when reading it in Japanese. There is no discrepancy here. I don't know what rules you are reading.

You should not believe everything that is written in J89.

This reference to the shape of a "double-ko seki" was one of the very clear mistakes in J89's Commentary (original version).
Even the current version is NOT correct (not saying anything about "dead" or "alive" stones any longer, but), declaring ALL stones in the corner being "seki stones", because they have a "dame".
In addition, this error was also ADDED to the commentary to L&D Example 25, which was CORRECT in the ORIGINAL version (according to James Davies' translation).

The corresposing legal text of Article 8 does NOT leave any room for misunderstanding:
ONLY "alive" stones can become "seki STONES".
But both sides single stones are "dead"!!!

It simply did not make any sense to insert popular science explanation into a rules text. At least not at this crucial spot!
It should be evident that IT DOES MATTER whether stones are part of a "seki" (which is NOT defined in J89), or are "seki stones", as defined within J89.

CDavis7M · Post by **CDavis7M** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:55 am

The single stone must be dead so that the intersection can be dame so the other stones can be seki. I don't see any issue with saying that stones 1-6 are living seki stones when considered together even though stone 6 is dead when considered alone. Especially because this is how the example does it. It is similar but opposite to the concept of a seki collapse where stones can be deemed alive seki stones but actually when assessing their status along with other stones, the would-be seki stones are now dead. This is just the rationale of the rule designers. It can't be right or wrong, it is just a design choice.

Life In 19x19

J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered

Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered

Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered

Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered

Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered

Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered

Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered

Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered

Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered