Amazon army

[kvasir]

kvasir wrote:
Judging from these rankings


I don't know what rankings you are talking about. Perhaps goratings.org? Most official games are taken into account here.

I posted a link to http://mamumamu0413.web.fc2.com/rating/ ... nking.html earlier. Unlike goratings.org this one appears to include all of the official games or at least a lot more than Goratings. For example 56 games for Fujisawa Rina up to the end of October but only 31 in goratings.org up to 28th of October, the number of missing games is often much larger.

[John Fairbairn]

This is looking to me like another attempt to impose numbers on go. Just as painting by numbers does not produce the Mona Lisa, looking at the go world through numbers misrepresents reality.

For women, in Japanese go, the reality is that they make a lot more from women-only tournaments than they do elsewhere. The opposition is much smaller, and not so strong. Women are also in demand as teachers (e.g. when big firms hire go pros for the staff). So that's where they concentrate their efforts. The same argument applies to Japanese male pros who don't pay as much attention to international go as many fans think they should. Japan pays better. As in most sports, a pro has to make his/her money while at their peak before the long decline sets in. The number of yen counts for LOTS more than number of Elo/Glicko points. This is especially important now that game fees have been abolished and pensions reduced.

Rina is in the overall top ten money makers but is nowhere near the overall top ten in go strength. She has good win-loss numbers but most of those games are against weak women.

Things are going in the right direction, but we are still in the foothills. That's the qualitative assessment. Rather starkly different from the quantitative 28-10 assessment of Rina's current official stats. Sticking with qualitative terms, there is definite improvement in her case, because she is playing more and more men, but on the other hand she may face a major career-break if she decides to have children. Kobayashi Izumi comes to mind. She also reached the top of the foothills before having and training Cho Kosumi. She's resumed tournament play now but is already out of puff, so she won't now be in the push for the final ascent to the summit.

[kvasir]

This is looking to me like another attempt to impose numbers on go. Just as painting by numbers does not produce the Mona Lisa, looking at the go world through numbers misrepresents reality.

Maybe, such ratings are ultimately only an imperfect indicator of past performance. It does however like I wrote look like she is reaching right up there on this list with the players that qualify all the time for the final tournaments of kisei, honinbo and meijin. This is a very small group of 20-30 professionals that is on the very top of this and other rating lists, the gap from there to the top of Japanese Go is still very large. It is an indicator of past performance, anyway, so there is not much use in extrapolating how far someone can reach from the current point.

[John Fairbairn]

so there is not much use in extrapolating how far someone can reach from the current point.

As even us non-numbers guys understand, given the way the numbers experts disagree so vehemently and daily about what the Covid stats mean - and that really is a matter of life & death.

But I remain optimistic of at least an entry into a major league. The reason is that I think there is a cluster of female players who are closely matched and they will push each other on. If you look at any period of go history you can see that the peaks (as measured by fame) occur when there are at least two major rivals. We see the same thing in derby games in all sports, so that's no surprise.

The rivals I have in mind here are Rina, Ueno Asami, possibly a rejuvenated Xie Yimin, and one who is often overlooked: Suzuki Ayumi. She's already 7-dan and not yet 40. As befits her name she's a slow but steady developer, with recent success, and I have a hunch it may be because she married Rin Kanketsu. She's already won three title matches and been runner-up in four more. Her current record in Nihon Ki-in listings is 24-18 and she has won 4 out 5 of her last 5 games with men, I think. And we know there's more great talent bubbling up underneath this quadrumvirate.

If only Kobayashi Izumi could find her form again! She's 12-10 for the year but seems to be on a roll at the moment.

[pajaro]

The army has had some skirmishes these days.

Xie Yimin lost to Ida Atsushi in the final preliminary game of the Meijin, missing a chance to play in the league.

Sumire and Ayumi battled in the second round of the female kisei, with a win by 1/2 for Ayumi.

For both of these games, I made comments in other posts, so that's it.

A more interesting result, at least to me, is that Kato Chie beat Fujisawa Rina, also in the second round of the female kisei. Chie is one of those players who do not make much noise, but her record this year is 29/15, not too bad. This may have been an accident for Rina, or a glimpse that more and more players are fighting to get stronger.

[John Fairbairn]

A more interesting result, at least to me, is that Kato Chie beat Fujisawa Rina, also in the second round of the female kisei. Chie is one of those players who do not make much noise, but her record this year is 29/15, not too bad.

You are right to highlight this, and in a sense her achievement Chie's even better than the figures suggest. She has a brittle-bone disease and so plays in a wheelchair. This is very tiring (4 hours in a chair is normally the red line) and so I imagine some of her games must be affected. Her teacher is no less than Hane Naoki. His decision, unusual at his level, to take on a pupil tells us he rates her very highly (as does her large fan base).

She is still only 19, and so perhaps still has a surfeit of fighting spirit, but that helped her to a come-back victory against Rina, by winning a semeai, in the Women's Kisei yesterday (though it did seem to me Rina may have hallucinated), so she now in the semi-finals in the easier side of the draw, and her record is now 30-15.

[pajaro]

Yep, 30/15 now

I know about her condition, and it sure must be tiring. Go is a game of the mind, but the body plays a role too. Kudos to Chie.
About the game and the dead group, I thought the same: I must be missing something, because Rina had enough liberties and for some reason, she didn't respond when she had. My counting is not accurate enough to evaluate the position. I just thought that she couldn't afford to lose a move and play the killing move. But hallucination is another good explanation.

[pajaro]

Another interesting topic, I nearly forgot:
Tomorrow (Nov 12), there will be a small tournament, Fumakiller, in Hiroshima. A small exhibition, I think, with Fujisawa vs Yimin and Ueno Asami vs Sumire. And then the winners, of course. Time is NHK style: 30 sec/move + 10 min byo-yomi.
I don't think there were any preliminaries. It must be under invitation. You can follow it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHik-o70JKc

I will miss it, but I want to see the results. Sumire might be able to get a win, if the fight gets crazy enough.

[CDavis7M]

Tomorrow (Nov 12), there will be a small tournament, Fumakiller, in Hiroshima.

In case anyone else is wondering. Fumakilla is a company that makes pesticides.

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By the way, Nyu Eiko 3-dan is playing Kobayashi Satoru 9-dan today. This is their final game in Section A of the Gosei tournament. The game is on Yugen no Ma server. Kobayashi (white) approached a corner on move 4. Nyu started a fight on move 13. Should be fun to review later.

[Harleqin]

By the way, Nyu Eiko 3-dan is playing Kobayashi Satoru 9-dan today. This is their final game in Section A of the Gosei tournament. The game is on Yugen no Ma server. Kobayashi (white) approached a corner on move 4. Nyu started a fight on move 13. Should be fun to review later.

If I read this right, she won. https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match_news/ ... 11115.html

[John Fairbairn]

If I read this right, she won. https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match_news/ ... 11115.html

Yes. 12th woman to make it to Big 7 finals, 17th time it's been done since 1979. Four times in Reiwa already.

Next step up will be the first woman to make it to the Big Three leagues (Kisei, Meijin, Honinbo), though they also have yet to get beyond the Oza foothills.

Okuda Aya 4-dan also made a splash in the 4-round SGW Cup last week, beating two 9-dan men and one 8-dan, ending up in 2nd place out of 16 (Han Zenki beat her in the final round).

[CDavis7M]

I checked the record this morning and the game did end up being wild. Very excited for her.

[pajaro]

Another interesting topic, I nearly forgot:
Tomorrow (Nov 12), there will be a small tournament, Fumakiller, in Hiroshima. A small exhibition, I think, with Fujisawa vs Yimin and Ueno Asami vs Sumire. And then the winners, of course. Time is NHK style: 30 sec/move + 10 min byo-yomi.
I don't think there were any preliminaries. It must be under invitation. You can follow it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHik-o70JKc

I will miss it, but I want to see the results. Sumire might be able to get a win, if the fight gets crazy enough.

The event (calling it tournament feels strange...) took place.

Yimin won Fujisawa, this could happen, and Sumire beat Ueno, this was more surprising, although I hoped it to happen sometime soon. Although pros always play seriously, it is still not the same as an official game, in a tournament.

In the "final", Yimin won. Overall, the feeling was "anything can happen". In my opinion it is a good thing, for fans.

[pajaro]

Yes. 12th woman to make it to Big 7 finals, 17th time it's been done since 1979. Four times in Reiwa already.

For those who do not know, we are now in the 3rd year of Reiwa. So this means 17 times in 42 years, 4 of them the last 3 years. Something is changing.

Next step up will be the first woman to make it to the Big Three leagues (Kisei, Meijin, Honinbo), though they also have yet to get beyond the Oza foothills.

Meijin has been soooo close this year. About Kisei, are we talking league B1/B2? A? S? In 1-2 years, there could be a serious chance.

Okuda Aya 4-dan also made a splash in the 4-round SGW Cup last week, beating two 9-dan men and one 8-dan, ending up in 2nd place out of 16 (Han Zenki beat her in the final round).

SGW Cup was an example of what was discussed a few messages ago. Who could qualify? Players between 31 and 60 years old who have never won one of the top 7 titles. In other words, to me: not too young, still active, strong but not top players. 1 woman amongst 16 players, doing well. It shows that some years ago, players were mostly male. In comparison, let's see the next Hiroshima Aluminum Cup, with 16 young players. 15 men, 5 women, one of then is current champion Fujisawa Rina. I'd say there is a difference between generations.

[John Fairbairn]

Who could qualify? Players between 31 and 60 years old who have never won one of the top 7 titles.

Little bit different - previous winners of Ryusei, Agon-Kiriyama and (strangely) SGW Cups are also excluded. And it's for the Nihon Ki-in only. But what is most unusual about this event is the scoring system. It may interest the numbers guys.

It's a 2-day, 4-round Swiss for 16 players, not too fast, not too slow (NHK timing). The winner is the one with the most wins, obviously, but ranking of people with tied scores is done in a way that be old hat to the numbers guys, but is new to me, so I don't know the terminology.

The first tie-breaker is SOS - that one I know, Sum of Opponents' Scores (Okuda had the highest SOS, incidentally). But the tie-breaker after that is not SODOS (the only other one I know). It is the (?) SOSOS - Sum of Sums of Opponents' Scores.

Even if this is not new to western players, I think it is an interesting development where even pros are copying western amateur tournament practice, at least in spirit. (The simple Swiss goes back a long way in pro play, though, but only in women's events.)

PS SGW is the Tokyo real-estate company St. Grande W. The full title of the event describes it as a Golden Mean (chuyo) Tournament, which is just a posh (Confucian) way of saying it's for the middle-ranked players, or the also-rans. The winner is excluded from competing again but gets to come back as a commentator/honoured guest in future years. The SGW people were quite open about expressing their disappointment that Okuda didn't quite make it. (But this is the story of Okuda's go life so far - bridesmaid in four major women's events, never the bride.) They get the bang for their bucks with Youtube exposure on the TsuruRin Channel, which we mentioned somewhere on L19 before. Rin (Kanketsu) was the winner of the 1st SGW Cup.