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 Post subject: Re: 63. Kerby (2k) vs. Numsgil (6k)
Post #41 Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:20 pm 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 614
Liked others: 28
Was liked: 65
Rank: 1 Kyu KGS
KGS: Numsgil
Glad you did well. When I stomp you as a 1k it will make my victory that much sweeter :P

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Move 37 Captures: W: 1 B: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Strategy and Thoughts
So this move is pulled directly from topazg's capping video.

As I stated before the intention is to sacrifice that lone black stone in order to build up influence facing the center and null out some of white's moyo. I don't mind giving white territory in exchange for influence because right now he doesn't really have any territory, and I'm weak in influence, so we both shore up our weaknesses and aim for a better balance. I'm still winning with my reverse komi, so making the game simpler by being better balanced is probably good for me.

Running out with the lone Q8 stone instead would just be awkward to manage since it's not really in a good position to either build up a wall for territory (white is strong on the bottom) or turn around and counter attack (white has too much center facing influence for it to be an easy fight for black). So running out just means I have a weak group to babysit.

...

I'm far less comfortable leaving the top left corner than I was a small eternity ago when I last moved :). After re-reading Kageyama's "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" and the chapter on getting ahead, I feel like this is a case where leaving it as is is a bad choice. But I also feel like walking with white across the board is bad, partly because of Wilcox's "Contact Fights" and partly because, while I get forth and fifth line territory, which I don't mind at all, I also force white to build a wall facing a center moyo.A strong wall facing the left and center favors white strongly. It's too easy for white to turn that into territory.

So I'm really torn and unsure about how to look at the top left. I feel like I have contradictory rules I'm trying to follow. Hmm... Maybe I need the double hane here? If there's a break on the right where I can take sente I might try that.

...

Speaking of sente, is sente something I should expect? Usually you get sente if you reduce. And lose sente if you invade. Depending on the sector lines you draw I might be inside a white moyo, which would make the cap a light invasion actually. ie:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Move 37 Captures: W: 1 B: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ {LN Q11 F15}
$$ {LN P10 Q5}[/go]

The longer line is really long though. Usually lines that long don't have the gravitas behind them that shorter lines do. So I think this is a case where it's unclear what I should expect sente-wise. It probably depends on my level of risk aversion. In the game as it stands, I'm definitely risk adverse since there's no reason to push my luck. So it will probably end in gote for me when I firmly defend.

...

Speaking of sector lines, white is definitely inside mine as well. (White is called a "grouse" in Wilcox's "Sector Fights". White will probably need to try and break out or form a base). So there's definitely some interesting fighting going on right now as we both try to escape and surround each other.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Move 37 Captures: W: 1 B: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ {LN O11 Q16}
$$ {LN O11 N9}
$$ {LN N9 Q8}
$$ {LN Q8 T8}[/go]

_________________
1k KGS


This post by Numsgil was liked by: illluck
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 Post subject: Re: 63. Kerby (2k) vs. Numsgil (6k)
Post #42 Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:10 pm 
Dies with sente
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Location: Canada
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Rank: KGS-AGA-CGA all 2k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 Move 38 Captures: W: 1 B: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't really see any clean way to do this. If I try to cut him off directly he will still escape easily move 7@2:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 2 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . 8 . 6 a . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . 9 O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So I am going to aim for more complications.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 2 1 O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The ladder stone keeps causing me grief. I can't win any kos, I have to watch out for ladder breakers the evil never ends until I get a chance to just capture it. They say weak groups are your problem, but dead groups are your opponents problem, this is truly the case with ladder stones.

_________________
"You always have more ko threats then me" -Dusk Eagle


This post by Kerby was liked by: illluck
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 Post subject: Re: 63. Kerby (2k) vs. Numsgil (6k)
Post #43 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:25 am 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 614
Liked others: 28
Was liked: 65
Rank: 1 Kyu KGS
KGS: Numsgil
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39 Move 39 Captures: W: 1 B: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 1 O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Strategy and Thoughts
Hmm hmm hmm... He's trying to cut me in two. I don't see a good way to fall back without giving white more than he deserves. Really on many many levels this is the only move. It encloses white. It protects a link. It's a contact move in response to a contact move, which is what I need if I want to work towards contact stability.

But white will cut and I'll end up with a tactical fight that will easily spill onto the rest of the board. Turning this from the largely strategic game it's been so far to an all out tactical brawl. Any center fighting should favor white because he's probably the stronger tactical fighter and because he's got several walls he can try and run towards. So this is probably the beginning of the end.


Tactics and Variations
This is the most likely sequence. Classic windmill. Then I need to decide what to follow it with. 'a' tries to steal white's base. 'b' tries to attack the black group in the center with the hopes of building up enough strength to form two eyes. 'c' tries to enclose white securely and rescues a black stone that I was going to sacrifice.

'a' forces white to squeeze between my sacrificed black stone and the two stones of the windmill. Probably a bad idea. Likewise 'c' forces white to build a base on the other side. Also, since my original goal was influence, I'll probably opt for 'b'.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , b . 2 1 O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
1k KGS

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 Post subject: Re: 63. Kerby (2k) vs. Numsgil (6k)
Post #44 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:20 am 
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Posts: 95
Location: Canada
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 3
Rank: KGS-AGA-CGA all 2k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40 Move 40 Captures: W: 1 B: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And so a battle begins.

_________________
"You always have more ko threats then me" -Dusk Eagle

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 Post subject: Re: 63. Kerby (2k) vs. Numsgil (6k)
Post #45 Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:47 am 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 614
Liked others: 28
Was liked: 65
Rank: 1 Kyu KGS
KGS: Numsgil
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Move 41 Captures: W: 1 B: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Strategy and Thoughts
Oh.

...

Don't push on a link if you aren't going to cut, Mr. Kerby. Force me to defend weaknesses and build central influence? Don't mind if I do. I really don't mind if you want to escape with your weak group. Any profit as you squirm in dame is good profit. As in investing in the stock market: you can't go broke making a profit (ie: when chasing profit, don't get over excited and over-extend yourself).

I chose the solid connection because a hanging connection at M11 would encourage a peep, which I don't like. And the influence direction of a hanging connection would seem a bit redundant since I have a stone at N9. A hanging connection in the other direction (at N12) would seem weird. Wrong direction really. There's nothing interesting going on northwards.


Beginners
1. Don't push on a connection (in this case a knight's jump) if you aren't going to cut. You just force your opponent strengthen himself. I'm sure Kerby knows this and he's trying to escape with his group as best he can. But I think he overestimates how weak he is compared to me. Even if I were stronger, if you push on the knights jump you need to cut. Even if you intend to sacrifice the cut. You just don't want to strengthen your opponent like this.

2. If you think of the hanging connection as an arrow head, they project influence perpindicular to the point. eg: Black 1 here starts projecting influence in the direction of the arrow. More so than a solid connection would (by a bit anyway).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$${AR N12 N15}
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
1k KGS

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 Post subject: Re: 63. Kerby (2k) vs. Numsgil (6k)
Post #46 Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:50 pm 
Dies with sente
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Posts: 95
Location: Canada
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 3
Rank: KGS-AGA-CGA all 2k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm42 Move 42 Captures: W: 1 B: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


No other move. I can't let him just cut me apart.

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 Post subject: Re: 63. Kerby (2k) vs. Numsgil (6k)
Post #47 Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:47 am 
Lives in gote
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Liked others: 28
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Rank: 1 Kyu KGS
KGS: Numsgil
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 Move 43 Captures: W: 1 B: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Strategy and Thoughts
White is playing very solidly to prevent any weaknesses I can exploit later. But I feel strong enough on the right side to leave it as is and take sente to do something with the top left.

The choice is between something to secure the corner and something to work the top side. The corner is more secure territory so I'm going to grab that. White can't really build anything up too big in the center with my strong black group on the right side. The top side is pretty much dame if white hanes against me or something, but grabbing the corner is more than enough compensation.

This is strictly gote (well, technically more like reverse sente). White is free to respond on the top side or find some other large point.

I play the knights move here instead of the push at C16 because of contact fight rules, which would discourage contact moves against super stable, stronger stones. Maybe I'm losing out on a few points here by not aiming bigger; I'm not really sure.

Also, my group on the right side is thick right now, but it wouldn't take much to make it suddenly a weak, heavy group. So I'll need to keep an eye on it in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: 63. Kerby (2k) vs. Numsgil (6k)
Post #48 Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:34 am 
Gosei
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Surely Contact Fights teaches that in pushing battles, it's important to keep ahead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X 1 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 3 . . . 5 6 . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X X X 4 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

"Hane at the head of two or three stones" as the proverb says.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

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 Post subject: Re: 63. Kerby (2k) vs. Numsgil (6k)
Post #49 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:19 am 
Dies with sente
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Rank: KGS-AGA-CGA all 2k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm44 Move 44 Captures: W: 1 B: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After considering a few different alternatives I like this one the best. Here were some other ideas:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . c . a . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


at first I thought I'd just like to split up his top area with a move like "a" but it is just bad fighting for me, and he gets solid very quickly:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . 2 . 1 . 3 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I also thought about expanding on the side with "b" in hopes he would respond and then split up the top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . 2 . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


but he might respond differently which I can't have.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . 4 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I like "c" because the fighting isn't bad for me and it splits him up well

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . 7 . 1 . 2 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X 3 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . 1 . . 3 . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X 2 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If he chooses this option I'll decide on a or b. b is safer, but a might be able to snag extra territory.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . a 1 . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . 2 b , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


as for "d" its a big move that I would like to have, but not as urgent as the top. I don't feel I can trade 1 for 2 here

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


soon I will have to worry about my side being split, but not quite yet.

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"You always have more ko threats then me" -Dusk Eagle

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 Post subject: Re: 63. Kerby (2k) vs. Numsgil (6k)
Post #50 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:59 am 
Honinbo

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KGS: Kirby
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Question for observers:

Kerby wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40 Move 40 Captures: W: 1 B: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And so a battle begins.


Pushing at O10 without cutting feels somewhat unnatural to me. If white wants to play O8, can he not simply play it directly? If black tries to cut at O9, white has more liberties that way. If black tries to cut the other way (P9), black can THEN play the move that he did before this one (O10).

Does anybody else feel this way?

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 Post subject: Re: 63. Kerby (2k) vs. Numsgil (6k)
Post #51 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:33 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 614
Liked others: 28
Was liked: 65
Rank: 1 Kyu KGS
KGS: Numsgil
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45 Move 45 Captures: W: 1 B: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O . 1 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Strategy and Thoughts
Yeah, something like those two points were miai.

I'm not really sure how to handle this. There's no aji to exploit under my stones on this side of the corner, so white would have a hard time trying to live under these stones. But at the same time I sort of need a base for my stones. Although if white steals my base and forces me to run towards the center I'll be destroying a lot of his moyo. I don't think it's considered a good idea for white to do that.

Anyway, if we treat this space under my 4th lines stones as dangerous for white, a pincer here looks pretty good. I build up a bit of a moyo along the top (yay) and white's group is in trouble. White can't really counter pincer, because then he has two weak groups sandwiching my weak group, and a weak group sandwich is usually good for the filling(TM).

I also considered just extending from my group in to his elephant's eye, but I feel like that encourages white to start walling off more of the center, with questionable effects on his third line stone. Even if I capture this white stone, I think white gets the better of that deal.


Tactics and Variations
This is what I expect, I think, if white wants to try and save this stone. A slide first (I think this is as far as white dare go), followed by either a jump to the center or the hane on my stones. A cut doesn't seem to favor me here. Then I decide between 'a', 'b', or 'c'.

'a' Plays it safe and ensures there isn't any aji that white can exploit later. Which is good. I'm not sure if it's necessary or not, though.
'b' Creates a moyo on the right side, jumping in to the center to try and also (really) lightly reduce white's moyo.
'c' is like 'b', but creates solid territory instead of a moyo (though the 3-3 is still invadable I believe). Given that I already have lots of solid territory, 'c' feels a bit redundant.

I'll probably chose 'b', and aim to take 'a' as soon as I can. The aji in this corner worries me. I could be worrying unnecessarily, but the loss of this corner would be devestating. So with an expected value type of reasoning, 'a' is a big move for me. I don't mind burning sente and digging in to my reverse komi for it when I have a chance.

...

On a strategic level, in this position, the corner ends up enclosed, which is bad. But in compensation I've grabbed territory on the 4th line (good) and built a bit of a moyo on the right side. White's move becomes effectively a reduction against what wasn't really a moyo before. I think instead of worrying about me white needs to build up his own moyo with a move at E7 or something like C9 (safety extension from both sides of his moyo, though maybe too consservative). Or take the stone at O3. That aji is killing a lot of potential power down there.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O . 1 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . a X X X 4 . . , . c . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . b . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


More Strategy and Thoughts
Speaking of overly safe moves, I really want to get back here and play shape at 'd'. This group is not in immediate danger, but I don't feel good about making any invasions or reductions until all my groups are safe and solid.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , d . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 63. Kerby (2k) vs. Numsgil (6k)
Post #52 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:41 am 
Gosei
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This game looks really weird to me, as if the players are playing a bunch of little mini games that all happen to be located on the same board. Is it just me?

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 Post subject: Re: 63. Kerby (2k) vs. Numsgil (6k)
Post #53 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:45 am 
Gosei

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I would have played here in a second.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X 1 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Which is not to say that that's the best move! But I really really don't want to get sealed in as Black, especially since that group already has a bunch of weaknesses. Also, what will Black do in the game if White hanes? If he does this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . 4 1 . 2 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X 3 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

then it kind of implies that he would have done this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . 2 3 . 4 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X 1 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

which seems ridiculous. But if he can't counter-hane, his whole position looks pretty bad.

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 Post subject: Re: 63. Kerby (2k) vs. Numsgil (6k)
Post #54 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:02 pm 
Dies with sente
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Move 46 Captures: W: 1 B: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X 1 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Time to fight! After a less then satisfactory opening I hope middle game fighting goes my way. I can only count on gaining pennies here and there in endgame in end game, real cash will have to be made in middle game.

I assume something like this will happen with perhaps a peep at "a" or "b" tossed into the mix somewhere:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . 5 . O . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 X X X 1 . a , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 7 O O O O 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #55 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:09 pm 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47 Move 47 Captures: W: 1 B: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Strategy and Thoughts
Yeah, okay. This instead of/before a slide so I have to burn a move if I want to defend. And no, I really don't want to leave this just yet. Can white counter pincer/invade now against my K17 stone? Maybe. I don't think the resulting fight between weak groups really favors either player. We would both end up really hurting each other's positions. I would build a nice wall up into white' center moyo, and white gets a nice wall facing the right side, which is still a bit weak and invadeable. If white's looking to complicate things to force me into a mistake, this is how he should do it.

...

This move (E18), or one to the right? This is normally the shape move. But along the edge I'm not sure if it's necessary. But one to the right leaves some sente harassing sequences for white. Worse case I'm just giving up a few end game points, I think, so I don't mind playing it safe and solid. With this move and no corresponding white stone at F18, I feel safe enough leaving the corner.

...

Again, yeah, I'm locked in the corner, which is bad strategically. But it's a big corner. And white really needs to urgently do something with this wall to make it count for something. As it is the wall is a bit too far away from the other side to be secure from invasions which can run out into the center. And now that I have some stones in the center I have a good base to run towards with invasions/weak groups.

And with black's solid corner the cut at G15 would worry me if I were white. So white has miai weaknesses here basically which I can exploit later.

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 Post subject: Re: 63. Kerby (2k) vs. Numsgil (6k)
Post #56 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:19 pm 
Gosei

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Numsgil wrote:
Again, yeah, I'm locked in the corner, which is bad strategically. But it's a big corner.

Is it really?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | a a a a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | a a a a X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . a . . . O . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b b b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b b b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b b b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not saying that's White's territory yet, but comparing those two sets of 9 points each makes me a lot more interested in White's position than in Black's.

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Post #57 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:04 pm 
Judan
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Kirby wrote:
Question for observers:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40 Move 40 Captures: W: 1 B: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Pushing at O10 without cutting feels somewhat unnatural to me. ...
Does anybody else feel this way?


Yes. White must cut at N11.

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 Post subject: Re: 63. Kerby (2k) vs. Numsgil (6k)
Post #58 Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:38 pm 
Dies with sente
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 Move 48 Captures: W: 1 B: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After much pondering I've decided to not protect the cut. I feel if I protect it Nums will get 2 moves on the side and shatter any territory I have there. He would get a free ladder breaker then a second move. I will take my chances with a fight. I hope he starts the fight instead of taking an extension on the other side. I don't think I can overcome the reverse komi if he solidly extends somewhere around "a", even now I am pretty skeptical that I can. He has a lot of solid points. I can reduce the bottom corners decently come end game, but the top is getting harder.

I don't want this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . 3 O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 63. Kerby (2k) vs. Numsgil (6k)
Post #59 Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:32 pm 
Tengen

Posts: 4382
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GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 4k
Kerby wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 Move 48 Captures: W: 1 B: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After much pondering I've decided to not protect the cut. I feel if I protect it Nums will get 2 moves on the side and shatter any territory I have there. He would get a free ladder breaker then a second move. I will take my chances with a fight. I hope he starts the fight instead of taking an extension on the other side. I don't think I can overcome the reverse komi if he solidly extends somewhere around "a", even now I am pretty skeptical that I can. He has a lot of solid points. I can reduce the bottom corners decently come end game, but the top is getting harder.

I don't want this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . 3 O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Definitely agree. Especially with the reinforcement on the left, white shouldn't fear the cut.

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 Post subject: Re: 63. Kerby (2k) vs. Numsgil (6k)
Post #60 Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:36 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

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Rank: 1 Kyu KGS
KGS: Numsgil
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 Move 49 Captures: W: 1 B: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X O O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O , X . . O . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Strategy and Thoughts
Yes, something like this is an important move for white. Good job. :P

I'm going to activate the aji of the O3 stone with a ladder breaker/moyo reduction in sente. Then I'll jump back up top strengthen my K17 stone.


Tactics and Variations
I don't think white can capture this stone in a net. So a ladder breaker is a pain in the butt for him. This stone, if it lives, cuts white in two pretty effectively, so white doesn't want that to happen.

This is the best white can do with a net, I think. This builds up some nice influence for white, but it also enlarges the corner for black by quite a bit. And there are still some dangerous cutting points.

Anyway, we'll see what white decides to do.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc1
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 4 6 . . . . |
$$ . . . 2 3 5 O . . . |
$$ , . . 8 1 C 7 . . . |
$$ . . . O X C X . . . |
$$ . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

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