Is Go a Tall Man's Game?

[hyperpape]

...explanation to follow, but does anyone know how tall the following fellows were?

Go Seigen
Cho Chikun
Lee Changho
Lee Sedol
Cho Hunhyeon
Shin Jinseo
Ke Jie
Iyama Yuta

Publications stating their heights would be best, but if you've personally met them, or know pictures where you can clearly compare them to someone else, that'll do.

Why? I don't quite know, but I'm asking as a favor to Dan Luu, who asked it on twitter (https://twitter.com/danluu/status/1492973618048880640). He didn't say why he's asking, but he tends to write very interesting things, especially if you're in the tech industry (http://danluu.com/). I thought this group might have someone who knew, or can check Chinese/Japanese/Korean media for an answer. Dan named Go Seigen, Cho Chikun, Lee Changho, Lee Sedol, while I added Cho Hunhyeon and the current top players in each of the major countries.

[bugcat]

I doubt any of these oriental professionals are particularly tall as we would understand the term in the west.

Lee Sedol has always looked quite short to me, even for a Korean.

[Harleqin]

I saw a photo where Ichiriki Ryo looked a head taller than Iyama Yuta.

[Knotwilg]

...explanation to follow, but does anyone know how tall the following fellows were?

Go Seigen
Cho Chikun
Lee Changho
Lee Sedol
Cho Hunhyeon
Shin Jinseo
Ke Jie
Iyama Yuta

On a world wide scale, it's not a tall man's game. I'm taller than all these men. On the other hand, the Dutch preponderance in high level amateurs is suspicious ...

All jokes aside ... there are a few known biases in the world out there

1) In football (soccer) there's a bias towards being born early in the year, because you are taller and stronger than those in the same age group, therefore get positive stimulus, not only psychologically or physiologically but also by being sent to selected programs, national selections ... leading to a spiral effect

2) People have grown taller over time because of better nutrition, health care ... We can suspect that welfare is a common ancestor for height and performance in activities which (unlike basketball) don't directly depend on height

That is, on average, comparing dissimilar groups. Within one homogenous group I wouldn't expect such a correlation. In my own circle I didn't observe go players to be taller on average than our population.

[hyperpape]

Yeah, I’m not sure, but I suspect the most relevant question is how tall they are relative to the average in their own countries? Or just absolute heights, so that anyone can estimate your own interpretation.

[jlt]

This page says that chess players tend to be short: https://www.chess.com/blog/GM_Kenny_Ji/ ... ss-players

[bugcat]

I went to like your post, then realised we were on L19, heh.

There's short and there's short -- Steinitz was really five foot flat?!

[Kirby]

I'd suspect that the average height of a professional go player is less than the average height of the population in that country.

I don't have data to back this up, except for the handful of pros that I've met in real life.

[Joaz Banbeck]

As for go and tall people, I can report a positive correlation. I was about two meters tall when I reached 2 dan; both my height and go playing strength have declined a little bit since then.

This page says that chess players tend to be short: https://www.chess.com/blog/GM_Kenny_Ji/ ... ss-players

Only British chess players.

[hyperpape]

I'm taller than all these men.

From meeting people, from pictures, or because you’re a giant and you’re gambling?

[dfan]

Here's the article the request was for: https://danluu.com/talent/

[pajaro]

There may be a slight bias here.

When Nakamura Sumire turned pro, we could see many photos of her playing in exhibition games. In particular, there was one where she needed 2 cushions to sit properly, more or less. I also read some comments about how she would tend to play closer to her. Of course she could see the whole board, and of course she could decide to play any move, close or not. But that's the point of an unconscious bias: what she can choose and what she tends to do is not the same.

If you are taller then the opposite side is not so far away? Does it help you to have a better whole board vision? I don't know. I would usually say no, it would be a tiny tiny effect. But when people argue about the right value of komi, or rely in an AI that predicts the outcome of a game from the first move and you trust it, can you ignore such effect?

[jlt]

I just skimmed through dfan's link, but I understood that
* Men in leading positions of big companies are generally tall
* So one may wonder if height is correlated with intelligence
* Since top chess (or go?) players are not taller than average, we can conclude that the answer to the preceding question is negative.

[John Fairbairn]

Ever since Victorian phrenology, in which at times it seemed you could claim to hit someone on the head with a hammer and improve their IQ with the subsequent lump, there have been various faddy attempts to link IQ or a skill to an extraneous feature.

In Japanese go (and shogi) the most recent fads I can recall have been birthdays (on the basis of both simple statistics and astrology), left/right-brain aptitudes, and blood type. Blood type still pops up today.

It has often also been claimed that being the youngest child in the family is a marker for go ability (e.g. Go Seigen). How that squares with only childs (nice example of a necessary deviant plural ) who are also an eldest child is always left unexplained. And the fact there may be younger girls in the family is usually ignored.

That is not to say there are no markers. It may just be that any suggested so far have been debunked as pseudo-science.

Applying common-sense and long experience, allied to lessons from other activities, I think we can say that more likely markers of go ability are starting young, very hard work, and the circumstance of having go-playing relatives. But maybe these are too obvious for scientists to bother trying to debunk?

* So one may wonder if height is correlated with intelligence

Or bossiness? Ask Napoleon.
Or, as more men run big companies, are men more intelligent than women?

[Ferran]

Ever since Victorian phrenology, in which at times it seemed you could claim to hit someone on the head with a hammer and improve their IQ with the subsequent lump,

Fair's fair. Some people DO get smarter when knocked silly.

In Japanese go (and shogi) the most recent fads I can recall have been birthdays (on the basis of both simple statistics and astrology), left/right-brain aptitudes, and blood type. Blood type still pops up today.

I seem to recall sometime during the Anime Boom in the 90s that Astrology and Blood type had a big influence in the success of *fictional characters*. And, really, a bunch of characters from that era do have both. I *think* it was more common in girl's manga, but... old memories (since forgotten; the neuron fades).

with only childs (nice example of a necessary deviant plural )

Sorry... I'd have thought it would be "only children"... What amb I missing?

That is not to say there are no markers. It may just be that any suggested so far have been debunked as pseudo-science.

I suppose the guys behind the James Webb telescope should actually thank pseudoscience. As much as a bother it is sometimes, it does pike people into getting more of the real one. In the case of, say, Blood type... how many people have learned statistics because of it?

Or, as more men run big companies, are men more intelligent than women?

Women would seem to be *wiser* at least.

Take care.