Even a constitutionally apolitical federation is bound by human rights, laws, ethics and a duty to protect members and human beings.PMyricest wrote:The EGF is constitutionally apolitical
War of aggression that will affect all of us.
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RobertJasiek
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Re: War of aggression that will affect all of us.
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kvasir
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Re: War of aggression that will affect all of us.
RobertJasiek wrote:PMyricest wrote:The EGF is constitutionally apolitical
Even a constitutionally apolitical federation is bound by human rights, laws, ethics and a duty to protect members and human beings.
This is close to the core of the matter.
I'll add that condemning wars of aggression is beyond and above politics. It has a long history in Sports as can be seen by the reaction of the International Olympic Committee. This matter does go to the very core of what the European Go Federation is about.
https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-ur ... or-belarus
Somehow my original post on this topic seems at risk of becoming a forum for expressing views ambivalent or opposite to European values, full of false equivalences and mostly deprived of meaningful condemnation of the crime that is at the heart of this matter.
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PMyricest
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Re: War of aggression that will affect all of us.
Indeed, and on balance you would imagine that the EGF will pass the motion, especially after two more of its members were directly threatened. Of course that isn't very nice for some, but then it is even worse for others.
I remember what TMark used to say.
I remember what TMark used to say.
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Elom0
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Re: War of aggression that will affect all of us.
I'm still angry the west has not set up a No-Fly Zone or at least flown fighter jet's over Ukraine to intimidate Russia, or at the very least simply flown jets over Ukraine without firing anything, just send jets over to harass the Russian forces. and I say this because Putin is a Brinkman. He only respects other Brinkmen like the US 45th President. Sanctions can only do so much here. If we can use force to make him back off into the Donetsk and Luhansk and Crimea regions, that would be a success. I'm not asking for loads of planes, just a few to send a message that we're willing to fight Russia under extreme circumstances, not just bully small countries like the west normally does.
Goal: Prevent under any and all circumstances Russia taking over the Ukraine capital, Kyiv, from a go-players perspective on territory
0-In all these, the goal is to show Russia that threats of nuclear war are unacceptable and that the west is willing to make minor incursions against another nuclear power. By setting that precedent, it actually makes the world safer and less likely to enter nuclear war in the future, since a precedent has been set against it when two nuclear power come into conflict, since the first was done smartly enough to make it difficult to justify escalation on that alone, and other nations will see no point in developing a Nuclear weapons program since it's wouldn't rule out conflict between other nuclear states anyway. It is ridiculous to think that skirmishes between major powers should escalate into conflict with forbidden weapons, and the best way to set the precedent that that should not happen is to be willing to directly confront Russia, but on a scale so small it's impossible to justify escalating the conflict.
1-Send 2 or 3 unmanned drones to strike critical and strategic points in Russian-held territory. Since they do not have actual NATO personnel inside them, this is the least likely option to escalate into nuclear conflict.
2-Send 3 NATO fighter jets over eastern Ukraine and 3 NATO fighter Jets over cities around Kyiv, but don't shoot at anything, simply harass and distract Russian forces with the knowledge that you might strike them. Again, you're technically not sending NATO troops into Ukraine, which wouldn't make sense to do.
3-Set up a No-Fly zone over Kyiv and other strategic locations in Ukraine.
NATO wouldn't even take the first step. I'm so disappointed, it seems security is only important when it involves bullying smaler countries, but when it comes to standing up to behavior I would count as bullying from an equally competent foe, the tough-guy act falls apart.
Looking at this from a go-playing perspective, the west seems to be violating many go-strategy proverbs in regards to Sabaki and weak stones.
Quote from me https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments ... &context=3 In response to someone making the oxymoronic claim that politics and sport should kept separate:
"The problem is that I think most of the people who say this are absolutely fibbing to themselves. I mean if you told me that if someone came to your house and started beating up your family, the first thing you do would be to play to so peace, I'd definitely believe. Turn the other cheek, widen your definition of cheek, all things I agree with. But I do not understand why people want to moralise on those who don't follow a geopolitical stance that the moralisers themselves do not follow on the personal scale. It begins to sound like less of a genuine sentiment and more itself a political statement; the idea that a country can hold whatever sporting event no matter what they're doing sounds itself like the strongest form of political propaganda and not really encourage world peace or human rights but basically say it's not that important unless I'm the one being oppressed. It begins to sound literally like propaganda for oppressive governments couching itself quite distastefully as neutrality, closer to the opposite of the sentiment claimed. I mean if you have stories where someone tries to beat you up and you offer them go, I'll gladly stand corrected, and I'd follow your example--hey, let's settle this on the go board!--Although I don't get into fights nor live in a place I think where fights are likely for me. Politics begins at home. It's my motto.
I mean to my ears even the way you've phrased things sound more like an advertiser than someone who actually believes their statements, which is common among people who say that sort of thing, much like most people on fox news sound like they're characters in a reality TV show so you know they're saying bovine (contribution to) greenhouse gas emissions.s..s.or you to imagine yourself outside of oppressive policies, and let our athletes, who are not politicians, do the diplomacy for us. This would actually seem genuine."
Maybe we should stock up on food and build bunkers.
Goal: Prevent under any and all circumstances Russia taking over the Ukraine capital, Kyiv, from a go-players perspective on territory
0-In all these, the goal is to show Russia that threats of nuclear war are unacceptable and that the west is willing to make minor incursions against another nuclear power. By setting that precedent, it actually makes the world safer and less likely to enter nuclear war in the future, since a precedent has been set against it when two nuclear power come into conflict, since the first was done smartly enough to make it difficult to justify escalation on that alone, and other nations will see no point in developing a Nuclear weapons program since it's wouldn't rule out conflict between other nuclear states anyway. It is ridiculous to think that skirmishes between major powers should escalate into conflict with forbidden weapons, and the best way to set the precedent that that should not happen is to be willing to directly confront Russia, but on a scale so small it's impossible to justify escalating the conflict.
1-Send 2 or 3 unmanned drones to strike critical and strategic points in Russian-held territory. Since they do not have actual NATO personnel inside them, this is the least likely option to escalate into nuclear conflict.
2-Send 3 NATO fighter jets over eastern Ukraine and 3 NATO fighter Jets over cities around Kyiv, but don't shoot at anything, simply harass and distract Russian forces with the knowledge that you might strike them. Again, you're technically not sending NATO troops into Ukraine, which wouldn't make sense to do.
3-Set up a No-Fly zone over Kyiv and other strategic locations in Ukraine.
NATO wouldn't even take the first step. I'm so disappointed, it seems security is only important when it involves bullying smaler countries, but when it comes to standing up to behavior I would count as bullying from an equally competent foe, the tough-guy act falls apart.
Looking at this from a go-playing perspective, the west seems to be violating many go-strategy proverbs in regards to Sabaki and weak stones.
kvasir wrote:RobertJasiek wrote:PMyricest wrote:The EGF is constitutionally apolitical
Even a constitutionally apolitical federation is bound by human rights, laws, ethics and a duty to protect members and human beings.
This is close to the core of the matter.
I'll add that condemning wars of aggression is beyond and above politics. It has a long history in Sports as can be seen by the reaction of the International Olympic Committee. This matter does go to the very core of what the European Go Federation is about.
https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-ur ... or-belarus
Somehow my original post on this topic seems at risk of becoming a forum for expressing views ambivalent or opposite to European values, full of false equivalences and mostly deprived of meaningful condemnation of the crime that is at the heart of this matter.
I'm not saying Toby Manning's sentiment is wrong, I'm just saying he should take the fight to Putin dirctly. It's just that to my eyes it looks strategically like a 15kyu move, an especially strange strategic mistake for someone who engages in strategic sports. However, I'm to it being the case that it's a pro-level move that just looks 15kyu to me because I'm 5kyu, and discussed some rationale as to how it could be the case. At least I very much hope so. I'm not a member of the BGA at the moment since I haven't been to any go tournaments recently but I'll see if I can contact him to understand his strategy . . . I wouldn't have talked about tRGF in the letter, and instead directly address the Russian ministry of sport asking for the RGF's help to get the message to them, and assume the RGF is on our side--the RGF condoning this should not be contemplated, and we need to make it clear we think that to Putin and his ministers. Let's try to get as close to directly facing Putin as possible and skip the half-measures. Russian politicians and ministers might get the impression us brits are cowards if instead of going for them the BGA goes for the weak RGF under their mercy.PMyricest wrote:Indeed, and on balance you would imagine that the EGF will pass the motion, especially after two more of its members were directly threatened. Of course that isn't very nice for some, but then it is even worse for others.
I remember what TMark used to say.
Quote from me https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments ... &context=3 In response to someone making the oxymoronic claim that politics and sport should kept separate:
"The problem is that I think most of the people who say this are absolutely fibbing to themselves. I mean if you told me that if someone came to your house and started beating up your family, the first thing you do would be to play to so peace, I'd definitely believe. Turn the other cheek, widen your definition of cheek, all things I agree with. But I do not understand why people want to moralise on those who don't follow a geopolitical stance that the moralisers themselves do not follow on the personal scale. It begins to sound like less of a genuine sentiment and more itself a political statement; the idea that a country can hold whatever sporting event no matter what they're doing sounds itself like the strongest form of political propaganda and not really encourage world peace or human rights but basically say it's not that important unless I'm the one being oppressed. It begins to sound literally like propaganda for oppressive governments couching itself quite distastefully as neutrality, closer to the opposite of the sentiment claimed. I mean if you have stories where someone tries to beat you up and you offer them go, I'll gladly stand corrected, and I'd follow your example--hey, let's settle this on the go board!--Although I don't get into fights nor live in a place I think where fights are likely for me. Politics begins at home. It's my motto.
I mean to my ears even the way you've phrased things sound more like an advertiser than someone who actually believes their statements, which is common among people who say that sort of thing, much like most people on fox news sound like they're characters in a reality TV show so you know they're saying bovine (contribution to) greenhouse gas emissions.s..s.or you to imagine yourself outside of oppressive policies, and let our athletes, who are not politicians, do the diplomacy for us. This would actually seem genuine."
Maybe we should stock up on food and build bunkers.
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kvasir
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Re: War of aggression that will affect all of us.
As far as I know there has been no reply from the RGF regarding the BGA letter, not even a non-substantive response, I assume such response would always be made available to EGF members. There have been some calling for some kind of an "end" on this discussion in communications to EGF members. The RGF hasn't made any response that is available to EGF members and I'd not venture to think that some of the more surprising reactions represent something that would come from them. I'd have expected any member of the EGF to have already responded to all EGF members even if only to acknowledge the matter or update on when they are able to respond. It is surprising and unfortunate.
I have heard many fantastic claims (views, interpretations, misunderstandings?) about the meaning of the BGA letter, the situation facing Russian's who speak up and so on. None of this appears to come from RGF, who has not made any response available to EGF members.
I have heard many fantastic claims (views, interpretations, misunderstandings?) about the meaning of the BGA letter, the situation facing Russian's who speak up and so on. None of this appears to come from RGF, who has not made any response available to EGF members.
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kvasir
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Re: War of aggression that will affect all of us.
Something I care more about.
The lack of action by the EGF on condemning the war of aggression by Russia on Ukraine in the strongest terms and heed the call by IOC to relocate or cancel all events planned in Russia is very worrying. I am aware that the Executive is besieged with many very urgent official and private matters, not least because of the rapidly deteriorating security situation. It is still urgent to act immediately and before the opportunity to speak up expires.
I think there may be some statements or actions today but this is unclear. If you care about this you may wish to bring this up in your Go association to help shake the confusion and apathy.
The lack of action by the EGF on condemning the war of aggression by Russia on Ukraine in the strongest terms and heed the call by IOC to relocate or cancel all events planned in Russia is very worrying. I am aware that the Executive is besieged with many very urgent official and private matters, not least because of the rapidly deteriorating security situation. It is still urgent to act immediately and before the opportunity to speak up expires.
I think there may be some statements or actions today but this is unclear. If you care about this you may wish to bring this up in your Go association to help shake the confusion and apathy.
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jlt
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Re: War of aggression that will affect all of us.
If I didn't miss any information,
* 5 EGF countries (including UK) support BGA's letter or stronger measures against Russia.
* 6 EGF countries say that EGF is apolitical and don't want to exclude Russia or its members from EGF.
* Russia didn't give an official answer
* Several countries didn't share their position.
* There will be an emergency meeting in a few days.
* 5 EGF countries (including UK) support BGA's letter or stronger measures against Russia.
* 6 EGF countries say that EGF is apolitical and don't want to exclude Russia or its members from EGF.
* Russia didn't give an official answer
* Several countries didn't share their position.
* There will be an emergency meeting in a few days.
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kvasir
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Re: War of aggression that will affect all of us.
I think this is the gist of it.
I'll add two things:
* I think maybe the Executive made the decision to convene as is in its power. Obviously it would be possible to muster 5 members but the Executive has the power to facilitate.
* I don't know about your count of 6. I think there has been confusion and apathy. What is happening is only dawning on many people and there is always hope that we can come together and do the right thing.
I'll add two things:
* I think maybe the Executive made the decision to convene as is in its power. Obviously it would be possible to muster 5 members but the Executive has the power to facilitate.
* I don't know about your count of 6. I think there has been confusion and apathy. What is happening is only dawning on many people and there is always hope that we can come together and do the right thing.
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kvasir
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Re: War of aggression that will affect all of us.
The International Olympic Committee now "recommends that International Sports Federations and sports event organisers not invite or allow the participation of Russian and Belarusian athletes and officials in international competitions".
https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-re ... -officials
This call must be heeded by everyone.
https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-re ... -officials
This call must be heeded by everyone.
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kvasir
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Re: War of aggression that will affect all of us.
Good for them.mhlepore wrote:The International Cat Federation hears you loud and clear, kvasir.
Pedigreed cats is something serious but that "International Cat Federation" doesn't actually exist under this name, does it?
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kvasir
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Re: War of aggression that will affect all of us.
Another development is that Russian and Belarussian athletes will not be allowed to take part in the Winter Paralympic Games in Beijing.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/disability-sport/60599739
It is hardly the great injustice that many make it out to be.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/disability-sport/60599739
It is hardly the great injustice that many make it out to be.
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Javaness2
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Re: War of aggression that will affect all of us.
I understand that the EGF have suspended Russia's membership. To be honest, I don't remember if Belarus are still members or not.
No competitions will take place in Russia and Belarus.
NK has resigned from the executive.
There is some other stuff, but I didn't see any firm details ...
No competitions will take place in Russia and Belarus.
NK has resigned from the executive.
There is some other stuff, but I didn't see any firm details ...