Prokovich game

calm · Post by **calm** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:02 pm

Approaching 1 is virtually miai and therefore not urgent or big.

D17 is possible and entirely consistent with the heavily territorial approach.

Splitting at someplace like J17 allows for a sequence like: W J17 G17 N17 gives B a perfect extension from his UL.

I would play G17.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:00 pm

I was reading the thread, and I wanted to say B should wedge at L3 to give white a smaller checking move.

Since this is a pro game, I believe the results must be equal, or close to it, but I have a hard time believing it after typical play on the bottom. For that (weak) reason, I think white wiil play on top, but I have no idea where.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:20 pm

I think white will split the top at K17.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:51 pm

This, IMHO, is what white fears most. Those two upper left stones are glaring down the left side, and a move around D/C 6/7 attacks both the corner and the side stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . a . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Normally for white, the answer to a move like this is 'a', or nearby, and then to extend to :b9:

or nearby. But since :b9:

is there already, 'a' does not work for white.

So white has to play something lower like :w2:

below, and black attacks with :b3:

while making territory.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . 2 . . . X . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

To prevent all of the above, white plays this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:59 pm

daniel_the_smith wrote:I think white will split the top at K17.

Black will play H17 and get more for the exchange.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:24 pm

Maybe M3? It's true that it's miai to make a base on the bottom, but I think white can benefit by forcing the direction that b makes his base in. The reason I think that this direction is interesting is because the extension on the right is further than what's on the left.

Black will likely make a base, and as a side effect, white can protect the left side in some way to deal with issue Joaz brought up.

calm · Post by **calm** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:40 pm

Joaz Banbeck wrote:This, IMHO, is what white fears most.

Your argument is impeccable except for one thing. One could argue the same thing about B Q6 indicating that R14 is the way to go.The fact is if B plays D6 then W will play either C7,B7,C8 or C14.
W doesn't care about B surrounding C3 because you expect to get surrounded when you play 3-3, thats sort of the whole point of playing 3-3.

PS D6 really doesn't attack C3. You can't really attack a stone at 3-3 with one move. That too is the point.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:53 pm

calm wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:This, IMHO, is what white fears most.

Your argument is impeccable except for one thing. One could argue the same thing about B Q6 indicating that R14 is the way to go...

The right side is not the same, because C12 is a better extension with the top left than R13 is for the top right. R13 is still a good point, but a bit more cramped.

freegame · Post by **freegame** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:02 am

I think M3, just like I posted under "looking ahead" in my previous post.
White has no weakness he needs to defend next attacking is usually better then taking a big point.
The right side is bigger than the left, therefore M3 and not H3.

@calm & daniel_the_smith
Splitting the top seems to give a bad result and be too early. (for any move on top)
I think so because white has no clear groups on the board yet, only loosely connected stones.
Placing another lonely stone on the board will result in black getting a severe attack on
that single stone, and black can steer the attack in such a way that the other white stones
get weak in the proses.

@Joaz Banbeck
Playing C13 first seems too passive. now black can still do something similar on the right side.
I think it is better if you first force black into 1 direction (left) and then defend that direction (C13).
This makes it much harder for black to attack the other direction (right) with the next move.

looking ahead:

I expect black to make a base. the two space extension seems like the only normal move here.
Now white has time to defend the left side and play :w12:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 Move 10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . 2 . . X . 1 . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I would take black after this, because black has sente. but it is still very close and I would not mind taking white if I had to.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:22 am

Really interesting discussion.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 Move 10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . X . 1 . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

freegame has already predicted G3 for Black now. Any other ideas?

prokofiev · Post by **prokofiev** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:58 am

G3 looks most normal. F3 seems to leave a weakness without pressuring C3 particularly, so that seems out. E3 is interesting, though:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 3 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . 1 . . . . X . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course, it gets more interesting when White splits:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . 1 . . 2 . X . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe this isn't best, though, as Black should be happy to end in sente after G3.

clemi · Post by **clemi** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:49 am

I prefer to play M3 directly since it implies an answer from white on the left. After this, Black still has sente.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:23 am

My sealed move:

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:20 am

Bill, you're one move behind.

That's a cool idea though.

I think this is the first move that no one predicted:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Move 11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . 1 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

freegame · Post by **freegame** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:11 am

hmmm. That was indeed an unexpected move for me.

My thoughts about this last move:

My first thought:
Why would black play this and give away three "points of interest" to white?
an invasion point at a, an endgame point at b, a big corner enclosure at c

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Move 11 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . 1 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . a . X . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I looked up this corner and this black move is considered joseki.
Seems like a fair result. It was a white corner and white got a good result,
but black got a stable group ( :b6:

defends against a) as well as sente.
(now I learned a new joseki today

)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 joseki $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . 4 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . 6 . . a . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, why is this inferior to the move from the game?
This does not leave as many defects in the shape,
but probably this is too slow. black has no severe follow-up.
Therefore white can take sente, and while the 2 stones are stable
for now they can be attacked later (no 2 eyes guaranteed)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Move 11 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . B . . X . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now my thoughts about the next move(s): (including diagram with my guess)

White has already a stone at C10, which is close to the joseki move :w7:

(see other hide tag)
white will probably want to use this C10 stone to keep sente, instead of gote.

I would therefore play :w12:

This is a 4th line move (I think white can't afford another 3rd line move)
it is one space closer to the corner, In my oppinion this makes the corner solid enough to play :w14:

I think that because of the solid corner and the solid 2-space extension the gab at b is not easy to invade.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm12 My guess. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . 2 . . a . X . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Do I prefere black or white?
This "guess" looks too good for white. If this would be the game I'd take white.
Therefore I suspect black is going to try something else. I do not know what exactly,
because not playing (around) 2 leaves a dangerous invasion point at a.

My guess for :w12:

might very well be wrong, :roll:

But then I would still have learned something from the analysis.

Life In 19x19

Prokovich game

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