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 Post subject: More on coping with sabaki
Post #1 Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:06 am 
Oza

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Regular readers (both of them) will know that I like to harp on about sabaki not being limited to making light, fluffy shapes that float diaphonously into the centre. Sabaki just means coping.

Go Weekly has just published a good example. This is No. 83 in a long-running series that discusses new corner and side sequences from AI. To match the idea of "newness" they typically introduce the positions with a bit of guff about some new or trendy product or idea from the real world. In this case they used the heading Paladin Guard, which means nothing to me, and the intro itself waxed lyrical about the new eco-cups, Mog Cups, from Asahi. These are cups that don't needed recycling, because you eat them after you eat the contents. Personally, I would still regard that as recycling, but let's not go there :roll: .

The position shown is an opening that ends with Black's triangled iron-pillar stone. It is therefore now White to play. The hint is that "There is a tesuji for sabaki."



Here is the main line of the answer.



This post by John Fairbairn was liked by 3 people: CDavis7M, gowan, Harleqin
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 Post subject: Re: More on coping with sabaki
Post #2 Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:58 am 
Gosei

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I found the first move but not the end :( Here is something on Wikipedia about paladins, don't know how it fits the Usage in Go Weekly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin

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 Post subject: Re: More on coping with sabaki
Post #3 Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:30 am 
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I like that first line play. It didn't pop out to me at all. But these plays do come up. I'm not even sure if that was the tesuji though.

Also, my order was a bit different. I'm inclined to attempt to break out first before playing moves against the corner.

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 Post subject: Re: More on coping with sabaki
Post #4 Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:51 am 
Oza

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Yet another example in my campaign to encourage people to use the term sabaki properly. That is, it does NOT mean exclusively "making light flexible shape."
It means coping in a difficult situation.

The following game extract is from a recent game between two of the world's top-ranked players. The "highlight" of the game in the Japanese commentary was a sabaki manoeuvre by Black in which the difficult situation he faced was that White had the makings of a large "sphere of influence" on the lower side. If Black ignored it, this had the likelihood of turning into a "too big" White territory.

If you wish to try it for yourself, go to move 40.



Black 41 followed the proverb "sabaki wa tsuke kara" (sabaki starts with contact plays"). The commentary said that even just to have this move float into your mind means you are a strong player. The result of the manoeuvre (apart from Black's victory) was NOT a light flexible group but a "pillaging of the opponent's sphere of influence" (and, as a bonus, leaving horrible aji).

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 Post subject: Re: More on coping with sabaki
Post #5 Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:40 am 
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Is it your understanding that it is about using weak points to get something alive or miai to live before the opponent plays a move that kills off the use of aji of many weak points simultaneously.

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 Post subject: Re: More on coping with sabaki
Post #6 Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 12:40 pm 
Oza

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No. It is simply about coping in a precarious situation. The commentator provides the context (where, of course, weak points, miai and all the rest may, or may not, appear). Associated ideas (in the normal language) are tackle, handle, dispose of, manipulate, settle, solve, deal with (a problem). There's an implication of some effort or skill being required, i.e. overcoming some difficulty.

There are some standard techniques for sabaki. But sabaki is not limited to these techniques. Sabaki != the techniques.

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 Post subject: Re: More on coping with sabaki
Post #7 Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 1:06 pm 
Judan

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That doesn't seem a particularly unusual example of sabaki to me (lots of attachments and sente exchanges), but also I wouldn't find it weird to describe black as "making light flexible shape" in this example, but John evidently thinks it's not. Is the idea "light" is understood to mean big gaps between stones which aren't solidly connected like a large knight's move or loose knight connections of cutting points rather than solid or hanging? I'd say black is light and flexible here because he's got 5 separate chains of stones and doesn't mind several of them dying if he can nicely settle some others, he's not committed to any particular one surviving. So light is more about your attitude to the stones than how spaced out they are.

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 Post subject: Re: More on coping with sabaki
Post #8 Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:43 pm 
Oza

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Yes, Black is light and flexible here (although that doesn’t obviate the main fact that he has “coped”), but that is not the same as having “light and flexible SHAPE”, at least in the way shape is understood by western go players, i.e. as katachi. Light is generally best understood as ‘can be sacrificed’ and not as gossamer shapes.

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 Post subject: Re: More on coping with sabaki
Post #9 Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:15 am 
Honinbo

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John Fairbairn wrote:
Yes, Black is light and flexible here (although that doesn’t obviate the main fact that he has “coped”), but that is not the same as having “light and flexible SHAPE”, at least in the way shape is understood by western go players, i.e. as katachi. Light is generally best understood as ‘can be sacrificed’ and not as gossamer shapes.


I suppose thinking about the "shape" is a non-starter to begin with: https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.p ... 43#p261643

Quote:
The obsession with shapes is a major fault in western go. It leads to an obsession with the static over the dynamic, which haengma partly addresses by going the other way.

Quote:
Think of learning to tie your shoelaces. The resulting shape of two bows might be the most dominant aspect visually, but just telling someone to make that shape is no help whatsoever. But knowing that the aim is to get a tight-fitting knot and then being taken through the steps slowly (make one bow [not TWO], then make another, etc) is what gets you to your first success. Then you practise a bit more and learn to tie different kinds of footwear with different laces. You also learn when other knots have to be used. A tesuji is like 'tying a knot." It is not just a 'knot'.


i.e. It is not just 'light and flexible', it is 'making light flexible shape' --> ~= 'coping'

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 Post subject: Re: More on coping with sabaki
Post #10 Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:44 am 
Oza

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Quote:
It is not just 'light and flexible', it is 'making light flexible shape' --> ~= 'coping'


Kirby: This may be attempt at humour, in which case forgive me but it has gone right over my head. I also have no idea what your (?pseudo) mathematical symbols are supposed to mean.

But it occurs to me that you may be too young to be properly aware of the full background. I have expounded it here before and don't want to repeat it all again, though perhaps you could redirect your fossicking powers to find and re-quote that instead. But the highlights are as follows.

Around 50 years ago the notion of sabaki in the west was one that could be described in the 1992 edition of The Go Player's Almanac as "making light, flexible shape in order to save a group" (page 195).

That inadequate definition, which predates the 1992 Go Almanac has, unfortunately, got stuck in the foot of go like a pernicious verruca. It does at least acknowledge that sabaki is a verbal noun, but matters have been made worse by other people making the equation simply "sabaki = light and flexible shape."

The Go Almanac version was corrected in the 2001 edition (page 360) to "managing a weak group of stones so that it does not become a burden, e.g. by giving it a viable or flexible shape, or sacrificing part or all of it." This is correct. However, the inclusion of a single example citing flexible shape is a nuisance, because people used to hearing the older, incorrect version, where flexible shape is dominant, didn't register properly that this was a major change. It would have been better if the new definition had given more examples, including, say, "heavy" sabaki. My campaign (for want of a better word) has been to try to widen the range of examples to marry with normal Japanese usage by pros. I am NOT precluding cases of sabaki where moves are light and flexible. I am just saying it is wrong to say "fruit = apple" (even if you could get away with saying "apple = fruit"). We should be saying "fruit = apple, pear, orange, banana, tomato, etc etc etc etc).

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