Question on proposed invasion in book problem
Question on proposed invasion in book problem
I am working through Graded Go Problems For Beginners and came across this problem. The question asks where Black should play. The answer is 1 and it says "Black next aims to invade at the point A."
This seems overly aggressive and somewhat suicidal. Would this invasion be possible if White jumped out in response to 1 or only if white does not answer blacks 1? Would anyone be able to show how this would work or some variations? I have tried playing a couple of variations but it seems that White would be able to kill Blacks invasion.
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jlt
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Re: Question on proposed invasion in book problem
When the book says that "Black aims to invade at A", it means that "if White doesn't respond to 
then Black can consider to invade at A".
then Black can consider to invade at A".-
Mike Novack
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Re: Question on proposed invasion in book problem
I am going to try to explain in a different way.
a) You need to seek out moves that have more than one purpose. In this case, the solution given by the book gains territory AND threatens the white group below with invasion. I'll come back to this, but it is NOT "suicide" << if white fails to make a defensive move in response to back "1" >> So black made a move that gained something and white has to respond not to lose what had appeared to be white territory. That means black gets another turn to gain something.
b) That formation of white stones is one alternative in a common joseki. You'll see it used in a lot of games. It has the potential of gaining more than the other (safer, more solid alternative) BUT it has a weakness. If black does have a stone at "1"it CAN be invaded if you know how. The white stones will be safe, but the territory lost. You'll have to look for examples of how this is done in books covering just after joseki.
c) So ..... you can't JUST use problem books because you will every now and then run into problems like this one where getting to the right answer depends on other knowledge. In this case, that the white formation below was not safe from invasion.
a) You need to seek out moves that have more than one purpose. In this case, the solution given by the book gains territory AND threatens the white group below with invasion. I'll come back to this, but it is NOT "suicide" << if white fails to make a defensive move in response to back "1" >> So black made a move that gained something and white has to respond not to lose what had appeared to be white territory. That means black gets another turn to gain something.
b) That formation of white stones is one alternative in a common joseki. You'll see it used in a lot of games. It has the potential of gaining more than the other (safer, more solid alternative) BUT it has a weakness. If black does have a stone at "1"it CAN be invaded if you know how. The white stones will be safe, but the territory lost. You'll have to look for examples of how this is done in books covering just after joseki.
c) So ..... you can't JUST use problem books because you will every now and then run into problems like this one where getting to the right answer depends on other knowledge. In this case, that the white formation below was not safe from invasion.
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xela
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Re: Question on proposed invasion in book problem
Just in case the variations are too complicated, here's a simpler way of looking at it:jlt wrote:More details here: https://senseis.xmp.net/?34PointHighApp ... Connection
After
, black has three directions to run towards: a, b or c. (Maybe c isn't exactly the right point, but something in that general area should work, depending on white's previous move.) So on general principles, you can feel pretty confident that won't be suicidal.Here are two things that shouldn't happen, because they're too good for black:
In the above diagram,
tries to disconnect black but fails.The next move would be black 'a'. Here, you might think that black is in trouble because
is weak. But white is also split into two weak groups, so it's a fair fight, or perhaps slightly better for black. The move at was probably too violent (depending on what the rest of the board looks like), and should have been somewhere in the region of 
instead (in which case black would play at and connect to the stones on the left).-
Uberdude
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Re: Question on proposed invasion in book problem
The fact that black's invasion is not suicidal is a clue why we start in the corners: the corners are a much easier place to make secure territory and eyes than on the sides (which themselves are easier than the centre).
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Kirby
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Re: Question on proposed invasion in book problem
I agree with your conclusion, but not necessarily because the invasion isn't suicidal. Maybe the simplest corner example to think of is the 3-3 invasion, which also is not suicidal, albeit in the corner.Uberdude wrote:The fact that black's invasion is not suicidal is a clue why we start in the corners: the corners are a much easier place to make secure territory and eyes than on the sides (which themselves are easier than the centre).
Despite this, the corner is indeed more "secure" and easier to deal with than the sides in many cases.
be immersed
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Uberdude
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Re: Question on proposed invasion in book problem
The invasion is fairly easy (once you know how) if white doesn't answer, others posted some variations for that. But even if white does answer with a jump, black still has some invasions possibilities, here is a textbook sequence (for later):minkzilla wrote:Would this invasion be possible if White jumped out in response to 1 or only if white does not answer blacks 1? Would anyone be able to show how this would work or some variations? I have tried playing a couple of variations but it seems that White would be able to kill Blacks invasion.