In fact, the British Go Journal introduced the following definition of sabaki in 1988, in the glossary of issue #73.The source of the long-running problem is that the Go Player's Almanac of 1992 gave the following definition for sabaki: "Making light, flexible shape in order to save a group." This definition has appeared in countless places since
No-one is credited for the glossary. The editor was the late Brian Timmins.Sabaki: a sequence which produces light shape
Great work Detective. Lock 'em up boys!bugcat wrote:In fact, the British Go Journal introduced the following definition of sabaki in 1988, in the glossary of issue #73.
demonstrates sabaki. It offers Black a choice to (next diagram) defend solidly with a capture and let White move out or (last diagram) leave aji and force White to move out without saving the 4 stones. Some of the original stones may be sacrificed. This is the variation where Black secures his group without aji while letting White escape.
Sabaki: Variation where Black leaves aji (White a, Black b, White c) and forces White to move out without first connecting the 4 stones. Some may be sacrificed.
The point is that playing 'a' is not sufficient. This is not an example from the book but I imagine something like this. Or maybe f instead of 4? I don't know. I also like g but both seem a bit flimsy. I don't know about that narrative either... but that huge list of descriptions of sabaki really tells me that it is more about the flexibility of stones (which if flexible would inherently be resilient on the whole), not about lightness. Flexibility allows sacrifice to escape as well as potential to make eyes, whether in a light or heavy shape.bugcat wrote:I don't see how the narrative of professionals using a play definition that excludes lightness and flexibility, and Western amateurs using a shape definition that includes them (having been misguided by the 1992 Go Player's Almanac) at all fits this data.
Quoting a list that includes bad translations or SL articles with bad examples does not progress the discussion. It merely illustrates why sabaki has become a problem in English. To misquote further compounds the problem.Sakai, Kato, Takemiya, Kim and Otake defined sabaki in terms of shape.
Well, even if the Japanese don't see 捌く as a Go term (it isn't), Japanese Go players DO see サバキ as a Go term, which is why it's emphasized with katakana, right? The problem is that it's vague and kind of meaningless. It's broadly descriptive of what is happening during a period of the game but not descriptive of how individual plays function.John Fairbairn wrote:A further problem is the western obsession not just with shape but with definitions. Many Japanese don't see sabaku as a go term.
So then is your second example with Shuwa vs Hayashi really "sabaki"? Because it is in the context of an invasion, not a predicament. It starts with a deliberate attempt to become attacked by Black's power in the upper right, which I think is about opposite of coping with a predicament. And with the invasion placed, Shuwa immediately attempts to make sabaki by making light and flexible shape (one might say) with the ogeima.John Fairbairn wrote:For example, sabaki starts with the context of a predicament... We then have a process of expedience to sort out that predicament - to 'cope' with it.
Some do, some don't. The great Hayashi Yutaka chose not to include it in his Go Encyclopaedia, for instance. And the use of katakana is more to do with making go books usable by young people who are limited to the Toyo Kanji. I'm relying on memory, but I don't think the very common go words 劫 and 隅, for example, are in the TK. Even for more highly educated readers, characters such as 綽 for hane would stump most of them nowadays. Many go characters look strange to modern eyes because they were borrowed from Chinese, but after WWII they were gradually phased out or simplified. Most go words are not in katakana.Japanese Go players DO see サバキ as a Go term, which is why it's emphasized with katakana, right?
Well, the Japanese comment started on move 70. You appear to have gone back a lot further. I'd say the invasion was not an attempt at sabaki. It went awry and that is when (move 70) the need for sabaki arose. The last ko example you give (which I think may be from SL's definition of sabaki?) is certainly not (in isolation) a proper sabaki example. Self harm can hardly be counted as causing a predicament, can it (unless one is trying to show off as a barrack-room psychiatrist)? It is something that happens to you from external sources - you are caught unawares (hence the need to 'cope').So then is your second example with Shuwa vs Hayashi really "sabaki"? Because it is in the context of an invasion, not a predicament.
We do use tenuki as a verb (though not always in the right sense, and the distinction seems to be more important than ever in AI times), so why not sabaki if you can't cope with 'cope'?I would not say that White is sabakiing.
I was fortunate enough to visit Nara some 10 years ago. Right in the main... boulevard? I bought a couple of fans (the decorated ones, not the calligraphy ones, like those of the Kiin). I also wanted to buy a couple of ink sticks [*], and they were, of course, helpful to point me to a place (right in front of the street, as it happens).John Fairbairn wrote:If you want a bit of fun, you could ask some Japanese people to write apple in kanji, which is something many western students of Japanese can do!
I suppose he thought it was a meaningless term -- I'm wondering myself. I haven't seen Hayashi's encyclopedia, surely long out of print, but there was one other (besides the ko jiten) that I was looking at on Amazon JP. maybe it's time to find it again.John Fairbairn wrote:The great Hayashi Yutaka chose not to include it in his Go Encyclopaedia, for instance.
Well, I gave that example (from SL but NOT from the sabaki page) because it shows a situation where a player invades, tries to escape but cannot, and with the 7th move make ko attempt at life. Whereas Shuwa invades, tries to escape, and then with 15th move initiates sabaki. So is it the number of moves? Or being in the center vs being in the corner?John Fairbairn wrote:Well, the Japanese comment started on move 70. You appear to have gone back a lot further. I'd say the invasion was not an attempt at sabaki. It went awry and that is when (move 70) the need for sabaki arose. The last ko example you give (which I think may be from SL's definition of sabaki?) is certainly not (in isolation) a proper sabaki example.
I'll try!John Fairbairn wrote:so why not sabaki if you can't cope with 'cope'?
Surely no special requests are granted but if we can express hopes and dreams -- maybe if there was a Shuwa book it would have introduction on Dads and Moms of Go.John Fairbairn wrote:While toying with the idea of putting out a small book on Shuwa (to celebrate the fact that the GoGoD database now (though not yet issued) has the complete games of Shuwa - 600)
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maybe if there was a Shuwa book it would have introduction on Dads and Moms of Go.Well, I was thinking about Cho U, and then Shuwa and so "Dad" came to mind. But "Moms and Dads" seems to be the preferred order.John Fairbairn wrote:the order is always Mam and Dad.
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It's funny how these things work. As a linguist, I'd love to hear some more about American usage (and how about Australian?).