Are pros being underestimated?

[gowan]

It isn't fair to condemn pro commentary with a broad brush; there are many good pro commentaries. Unfortunately most commentaries are too short, possibly due to space restrictions imposed by the editor or publisher. Other sports also have ineffective commentators. When I watch American baseball on TV often the color commentator has little to say other than describing what just happened on the field with nothing addition to what we just watched. For example, "Batter hit a ground ball and Second Baseman scooped it up for an easy out". Such commentary could be helpful to visually impaired enthusiast otherwise ... Go commentaries tell us what the commentator thinks what a move means, not what the absolutely correct and deep meaning is.

[Gomoto]

Yes, luckily we dont have to watch those videos.

[pwaldron]

It feels bad (to me) for a pro move to be labeled as a "mistake" instead of commending their opponent on a skillful parry or reposte.

Mistakes exist whether or not an opponent parries correctly. If I make an unreasonable invasion but my opponent fails to punish it, that's two mistakes. Ideally we want commentary relative to perfect play--even if perfect play is unachievable.

[Elom0]

I can't even figure out how to use AI engines. Tech stuff just goes over my head sadly. I do very much appreciate the relative objectivity that AI has given us in terms of evaluating who's winning, but everything else pros should focus on, right? The pros should not see themselves as arbiters passing judgement over which moves are right or wrong but rather as beings guiding the lowly mortal folk in understanding the implications of each move, and if it's pop pro commentary for a TV audience ideally in an entertaining and relatable way.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=15927　I was really hoping for KataGo's opinion specifically on moves 117 119, but I only got winrate graphs. I'm very grateful for the replies but the fact that only Uberdude gave the move-by-move winrate and not up to 119 is a sign of how things are. I don't know how to analyse it with KataGo myself.

[Mike Novack]

It feels bad (to me) for a pro move to be labeled as a "mistake" instead of commending their opponent on a skillful parry or reposte.

Mistakes exist whether or not an opponent parries correctly. If I make an unreasonable invasion but my opponent fails to punish it, that's two mistakes. Ideally we want commentary relative to perfect play--even if perfect play is unachievable.

Ah, but in a real game between humans:
a) The invading player is behind, and will lose with perfect play on both sides (the AI thinks this invasion is the worser of evils
b) The correct refutation is very non-obvious, even strange looking. Might be found with a lit of reading time, but..
c) The invaded player is in time trouble, does not have much time to read.

[pwaldron]

[
Ah, but in a real game between humans:
a) The invading player is behind, and will lose with perfect play on both sides (the AI thinks this invasion is the worser of evils
b) The correct refutation is very non-obvious, even strange looking. Might be found with a lit of reading time, but..
c) The invaded player is in time trouble, does not have much time to read.

Quite so. And what would we expect a commentary on such a game to look like, assuming that an AI has identified some other line of play as significantly better?

I would expect to see something like "Black is behind and will lose with normal play. The invasion is probably a mistake--(other line of play) has better chances--but the invasion creates complications and throws the game into confusion. White will have to play carefully."

The invasion remains a mistake, but there are certainly nuances that a commentary can layer on top.

[Kirby]

But what I think CDavis is talking about is a fast-growing trend for amateurs to produce video commentaries which are the equivalent of "oh he hit the ball in the net, oh he hit that too hard, oh he dropped his racket." To the bling bling of AI they are adding the bling bling of making your own videos. This is by no means limited to go or even games. It's the modern version of expecting relatives and friends to watch your home movies of your latest holiday and pretending you know a lot about France because you had a croissant on the Champs-Elysées.

Agree. Open source AI has made it a lot easier for amateurs to do this.

[Elom0]

But what I think CDavis is talking about is a fast-growing trend for amateurs to produce video commentaries which are the equivalent of "oh he hit the ball in the net, oh he hit that too hard, oh he dropped his racket." To the bling bling of AI they are adding the bling bling of making your own videos. This is by no means limited to go or even games. It's the modern version of expecting relatives and friends to watch your home movies of your latest holiday and pretending you know a lot about France because you had a croissant on the Champs-Elysées.

Agree. Open source AI has made it a lot easier for amateurs to do this.

However it does mean that it showcases the amateurs that are more philosophical about it.

[Gomoto]

Takemiya video: Best Selection of Cosmic (v.s. Cho Chikun 9p)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-mC7AKWXA8