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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #41 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 7:17 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
In that position, at first glance, I did not see any significant static "shapes" beyond a vague element of symmetry. But the dynamic "patterns" that I did not so much "see" or "recognise" but "understood" instantly were three, not directly visible but implicit in the "flow" of the stones (i.e. in the suji). They were (1) the long line of points that I knew were potentially long enough to allow a seki, (2) what I and some others call "three eyes" - others may detect the same ideas under the heading of miai, and (3) what I call the bent elbow.

...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . O O O O . .
$$. . O O O X e X X O .
$$. . O X O X . X . O .
$$. O . X X X X X . O .
$$. O a b . 2 . c d O .
$$. . . X X . X X . O .
$$. O . . O O O O O . .
$$. . O . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Dear John, it is an interesting perspective of yours to see (or focus on) "dynamic" patterns rather than "static" shapes.

I think they are the two sides of the same coin that can ONLY be considered TOGETHER, because "pattern" = "shape" + "moves", isn't it?
(( My "moves" may be the same as your "flow of the stones". ))

In my understanding of the "static" shapes, we can identify (among others, expecially your "bent elbows" aka "potential false eyes") ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . O O O O . .
$$. . O O O X . X X O .
$$. . O X O X C X . O .
$$. O . X X X X X . O .
$$. O . C C . C C . O .
$$. . . X X . X X . O .
$$. O . . O O O O O . .
$$. . O . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

... three (potential) eyes and ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . O O O O . .
$$. . O O O X . X X O .
$$. . O X O X . X . O .
$$. O . X X X X X . O .
$$. O . . M M M . . O .
$$. . . X X . X X . O .
$$. O . . O O O O O . .
$$. . O . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

... a (potential) three-point nakade.

One (for me) important aspect, which I assume Robert's rejection of is based on its poor graspability / objectifiability, is already existing knowledge as well as already solved (especially simpler) problems as a decisive basis of the current reading.

Probably you have already solved problems of the following types:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to move
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . O O O O O O O O .
$$. . O X O X . X . O .
$$. O . X X X X X . O .
$$. O . . . W . . . O .
$$. . . X X X X X . O .
$$. O . . O O O O O . .
$$. . O . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

==> Black has only one eye, so he can only hope on expanding his eye space.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ White to move
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . O O O O O O O O .
$$. . O X O X . X . O .
$$. O . X X X X X M O .
$$. O . . . X . M . O .
$$. . . X X O 3 3 M O .
$$. O . . O O O O O . .
$$. . O . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

==> Black's two-stone group in the lower right has only three liberties, so Black's group will fall prey to a false eye at the right.

After having solved a sufficient amount of easier problems (i.e. "reduced" versions of the problem in question), you KNOW these "shapes" / "patterns" instinctively. There is no longer any need to solve them all over again.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . O O O O . .
$$. . O O O X X X X O .
$$. . O X O X . X . O .
$$. O . X X X X X . O .
$$. O . . . 3 . . . O .
$$. . . X X 1 X X . O .
$$. O . . O O O O O . .
$$. . O . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Nor is it necessary to "prove" that White can kill Black's group here with two moves in a row.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #42 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 9:45 am 
Oza

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Quote:
Dear John, it is an interesting perspective of yours to see (or focus on) "dynamic" patterns rather than "static" shapes.


Insofar as it is interesting, I can't take any credit for it. I am just trying to convey the ideas behind the Japanese terms. I have harped on this over the years, and if I have it to put all in a single sentence, I usually sum it up as "katachi - static, suji is dynamic; katachi + suji = haengma."

It took a VERY long time before I got traction with the suggestion that thickness wasn't really what most western players though it was (i.e. influence) and I honestly don't think I've made any noticeable headway with suji.

One of my abiding interests has always been "how other people think." I don't study this in any scientific way - partly because I haven't got the scientific background to make sense of the literature. But I do dabble often, as a dilettante, and my bedtime reading at the moment is book on how the combination of neuroscience and big data explains how and why plots and characterisations work in novels. There have been surprises: many old theories have been shot down, whereas Christopher Booker's theory of 7 plot types has been vindicated.

Now, because of my fascination with how others think, I have often puzzled over what I regard as a western go phenomenon, namely why so many people reject what Japanese pros say about studying and improving. Robert is famous for declaring someone was "just a Japanese 9-dan", but actually he's just one of a long line of people who treat the Japanese pros with contumely. I know this because I've heard it from the Japanese side and I've observed it myself. I have run through various possible explanations. One, in the early days when I started go, was possible prejudice because of the war. I came across this a lot as a young journalist when I had to interview British people given medals in connection with their war service in the Far East. I had never before come across such lingering, intense hate and it made a chilling impression on me. It was understandable, mind you. I had to talk to one woman who lost her fiance in a Japanese POW camp when he was injected with worms. Unit 731, no doubt. But a lot of time has passed since then and such strong feelings are now rare.

Another possible explanation at the time was the dearth of go literature in English, but again a lot of water has since passed under the bridge, and I can't see that as the main problem, though the lingering effects of things like yose = endgame do still plague us, in my view.

I pondered much on the possibility that educational systems have changed and I'm adrift. I do actually think that's true to some degree, but one of my daughters works in a school and has convinced me that I'm on the wrong track there.

The latest conclusion I have reached (very tentatively, though) is that very many (I'd be more honest of I said too many :)) western players are of a mathematical or scientific background, and they are used to challenging theories. Which is fine if you've got something else to replace them, but we haven't in western go, have we? Allied to that way of thinking, I believe is the old "Sword and Chrysanthemum" theory. This result from highly practical research by the Americans to help them in the Pacific War. They wanted to know if there were differences between Japanese and American thinking. The conclusion was that the Japanese were synthesists and so were good at copying and making things work. Americans were analysts and so were good at producing science PhDs and pulling the legs off spiders. Most things exist on a carousel and after a while this theory was given an early version of the "cancel" treatment ("we are all humans so we are all the same"), but it seems to be making a bit of a comeback at the moment. And I happen to think (again, tentatively) that it explains more than few things in western go. And that includes ignoring advice from Japanese pros.

Quote:
I think they are the two sides of the same coin that can ONLY be considered TOGETHER, because "pattern" = "shape" + "moves", isn't it?
(( My "moves" may be the same as your "flow of the stones". ))


I'd say yes so long as you mean "making moves". To dilate on that, I think it is important to understand that an empty triangle is always bad shape, but it can be good suji. And if you don't understand that, you haven't studied go enough. By that I mean you haven't thought about it, as opposed to just reading about it. If you think about an empty triangle as bad shape, all your really think about are the three stones. But of you think about it as bad suji, you have to think about all the other stones. Once you do that, you are in the realms of dynamic patterns. Which in turn means it's not about the stones, it's about the connections between them - the flow. So it's not the stone shapes you are trying to get into your brain, it's the flows.

In a sense, therefore, we are talking about muscle memory (misnamed though that is). Take a look at this page: https://www.scottish-country-dancing-di ... /reel.html for a move which is taught to Scottish country dance beginners and which they pick up in less then ten seconds. There's no fancy footwork. It's just walking in a figure of 8 and all you have to learn is to whether to go left or right (that's actually quite hard: "No, no, the other left...). I can barely imagine how anyone could ever dream of trying to learn a reel from that page. But, more than that, it is totally beyond me to imagine why anyone would want to write a page like that. That's an inadequacy on my part, of course, because there are lots and lots of similar pages and they must appeal to somebody.

But to whom? And I think we have a similar situation in western go, whichis why I feel at a loss.

Quote:
In my understanding of the "static" shapes, we can identify (among others, expecially your "bent elbows" aka "potential false eyes") ...


Not really. That's part of it, of course, but bent elbow is a label for a dynamic sequence (very short but still dynamic - two moves). It it is that dynamic element that makes it different from all other "potential false eye" situations. The tombstone tesuji is not a bent elbow.

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #43 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 10:42 am 
Judan

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John, you mention my name in the same paragraph as war prejudice. Do the Terms of Service allow me to disclaim no such connection?

You doubt that Eastern go theory can be replaced be Western go theory because, as you have stated indirectly by what you have not read or understood carefully, you have not read the related Western texts having (mostly, in parts fully) replaced or far surpassed the former (unless universally applicable knowledge persists in both, such as nakade).

"why so many people reject what Japanese pros say about studying and improving"

You continue to write about me, and the implication might be that I would reject what they say entirely. I do not. I think I am the one with the most frequent statements of their important recommendations to study life+death and endgame calculation as keys to improving. When they study a particular example by tactical reading, they are usually correct and demostrate their superior reading skill. I accept the good and reject the bad. When many of them teach by example, this method of teaching is bad for me so I reject it. When they urge to practice life+death problem by tactical reading, there were times when I was too lazy to abide but their advice was good and now I do better by following it. When they teach overcome traditional go theory, I reject or ignore it because it is very inferior to what I use and have often developed myself. If, however, they reveal some theory I have been missing and overlooked, I welcome the (albeit rare) input.

Go theory of the past is to be rejected and some Koreans and Chinese have also recognised limitations of some Japanese theory as hopelessly outdated. It is not just a Western thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #44 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 12:02 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
To dilate on that, I think it is important to understand that an empty triangle is always bad shape, but it can be good suji. And if you don't understand that, you haven't studied go enough. By that I mean you haven't thought about it, as opposed to just reading about it. If you think about an empty triangle as bad shape, all your really think about are the three stones. But of you think about it as bad suji, you have to think about all the other stones. Once you do that, you are in the realms of dynamic patterns. Which in turn means it's not about the stones, it's about the connections between them - the flow. So it's not the stone shapes you are trying to get into your brain, it's the flows.

Thank you, John, for your detailed and interesting reply.

For interest's sake, I took a look at what is written about "guzumi" in the Go Encyclopaedia 囲碁百科辞典 of 1983.

The first diagram (always showing the type of move) ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . . . , O . . |
$$ . . . X X O . . |
$$ . . 1 O O . . . |
$$ . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . , . . . |[/go]

... contains a typical example of a guzumi.

This is followed by two more example diagrams with guzumi ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O X 1 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . .
$$ | . O 1 X . . . .
$$ | . . X . . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]

... (B1).

The final sentence of the explanation is

いかにも感じが出ていることばといえる。

the AI-translation of which reads "It can be said that this is a word with a lot of feeling."

I am sure that there is a lot of additional Japanese written between these words.
Do you have an idea what the hidden meaning could be?
Perhaps "feeling" refers to the particular effect of the move (poor, brilliant, brilliant)?

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)


Last edited by Cassandra on Sat May 13, 2023 1:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #45 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 12:19 pm 
Oza

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Quote:
John, you mention my name in the same paragraph as war prejudice. Do the Terms of Service allow me to disclaim no such connection?


Oh, you don't have to do that because I absolve you entirely of any connection. I don't think any such connection was implied, but, if it was, it was inadvertent and I apologise.

You are right that I haven't read most of the western texts, but I feel able to judge them to some degree by their lack of widespread effect and from comments from people who have read them.

But by a similar token, you (like many other western writers) have not read most of the Japanese texts, and so I don't feel you are wise to make such unequivocal and far-reaching statements about rejecting what you dislike in them. I can accept that their method of teaching may be bad for you personally, but that doesn't make it bad for everyone - including the very many thousands of people who have learnt very good go in Japan over the centuries.

You are also right to say that Korean and Chinese pros have said negative things about Japanese go, but I think you'll find most of it is to do with how go is organised or taught (at the top (level), and any criticisms of their style of play is more to do with the psychological approach rather than pure theory (e.g. too cautious an approach, too much emphasis on the fuseki). And Koreans have sometimes criticised Chinese go, and vice versa.

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #46 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 12:45 pm 
Oza

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Quote:
I am sure that there is a lot of additional Japanese written between these words.
Do you have an idea what the hidden meaning could be?
Perhaps "feeling" refers to the particular effect of the move (poor, brilliant, brilliant)?


I think the most useful comment I can make is to mention the little known fact that guzumi is a verb form (i.e. dynamic). Character forms are rare: I have seen 愚集む and 愚図む but these seem to be jukujikun or ateji renderings. The etymology is disputed but there seems to be general agreement that things like, stupidity, overconcentration and inefficiency come into the mix. There are also associated words that imply slowness, dawdling and the like. There are also more fanciful suggestions involving it being a pun on guzu (slow/lazy) and kosumi, i.e. meaning a diagonal move that is not on the expected diagonal!

It may be that "feeling" implied here was a nod towards all these associations.

A phrase I have used for guzumi in the past is "making deliberate bad shape."

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #47 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 3:00 pm 
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Quote:
Perhaps we could say that brute force is uncultured thinking. You haven't learnt such a solution before, nor how to solve it, so you have to start from scratch without and rules to guide you. I don't think that many of us use that approach.


In many respects you're right, but I have found brute force reading to be useful in building up mental stamina. The ability to study a position for a long time without losing concentration, reading and retaining a large number of variations in your head is a good skill to have, and not just for playing go. In the case of something like a life-and-death problem of medium complexity the number of variations is large but manageable and works quite well as practice.

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #48 Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 2:04 am 
Oza

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Quote:
I have found brute force reading to be useful in building up mental stamina. The ability to study a position for a long time without losing concentration, reading and retaining a large number of variations in your head is a good skill to have, and not just for playing go. In the case of something like a life-and-death problem of medium complexity the number of variations is large but manageable and works quite well as practice.


Fair point. Reading is always necessary somewhere along the line, but divorcing out known patterns can make such practice tricky. However, there is a good way to achieve this, and that is by doing Cho U's 5x5 problems. The board is small, and so the number of possible moves is very manageable. But what I think is more important is that the unusual size of the board normally precludes any formation of standard shapes, so that you rarely get side-tracked by shapes and can only rely on pure reading. But you do get thematic dynamic sequences, which of course, by their nature, have to be read out, but often only for verification purposes. Seems an ideal format.

The following two examples are his latest contributions in Go Weekly. He rates them as hard, especially the second one. The longest line is 11 moves. Black to play and "totally demolish White."

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------- +
$$ | . . X X . |
$$ | X X O X O |
$$ | X O . O . |
$$ | X O . . . |
$$ | O O . . . |
$$ +-----------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------- +
$$ | . O O O X |
$$ | X . . X X |
$$ | X . O . O |
$$ | X O . . X |
$$ | X . . X . |
$$ +-----------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #49 Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 11:27 am 
Judan

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RobertJasiek wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to move
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . O O O O . .
$$. . O O O X . X X O .
$$. . O X O X . X . O .
$$. O . X X X X X . O .
$$. O . . . . . . . O .
$$. . . X X . X X . O .
$$. O . . O O O O O . .
$$. . O . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]



The answer is here: https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.p ... 79#p277779

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #50 Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 12:29 pm 
Gosei
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Thanks, I totally missed the correct variation. I'd need to work more on endgame problems instead of only life-and-death.

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