Following Nakamura Sumire

[pajaro]

Today Sumire played Son Makoto 7-dan in the 2nd (and last) game of the A prelim of the Judan.

Sumire lost, as one could expect. Well, expect? Really? The result was W+2.5, so quite close in the end. In her usual attacking style, Sumire was ahead at first, but when opponent resists, and she falls behind, it's hard to go on. Against a stronger opponent, like today, it's like jumping a huge wall. That's why, in the end, only +2.5 is a good result. IMHO.

Here is a pattern that's already familiar: play well, miss some move (maybe because she's trying things, not because she can't read), fall behind, try harder, fall behind-er.

Let's say she is gaining experience.

[pajaro]

Nothing very interesting happening these days. Summer, right? Sumire must be studying hard. School holidays.

Her next 2 games will be against Kono Rin (Gosei prelim A, 24th August) and Yamashita Keigo (Honinbo prelim B, 28th). Two top players, just one notch below the title holders. Both belong to the national team, so they must have played unofficial games before.

Another chance to see if she is in shape.

[pajaro]

Her next 2 games will be against Kono Rin (Gosei prelim A, 24th August)

First down for Sumire. Lost by 2.5
She began great, with chances about 90%. But then Kono took over and Sumire never recovered. Hard to come back against such an opponent. Still, only 2.5... a good margin for a game between pros, but could we say she was close?

[pajaro]

Yamashita Keigo (Honinbo prelim B, 28th).

Another loss for Sumire here, this time by resign, after Yamashita saved a group in a fight that looked like a semeai, but probably wasn't.

Another chance to see if she is in shape.

Even if she lost both of these game, I'd say the outcome was expected. The result alone isn't enough to judge her. But she managed to play close games, giving her opponent a run for their money. I don't know if she is in top shape, but at least it looks like she has left her slump behind.

[Elom0]

Nakamura Sumire on the move? She really is the next Cho Chikun for real . . . https://twitter.com/shi1ji9/status/1700493316566261983 Aiming for higher heights! Placing getting better at 바둑 over monetary success, and that attitude must be the reason why she got so good in the first place! What a dramatic development in the world of mindsports!

[pajaro]

I saw this video from JK (our source of Sumire information):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_QSb_GYfxM

Automatic translation does a pretty good job, but not perfect. I think I missed things.

Basically, Sumire wants to move to Korea to improve. She took the female Kisei, but since then, her records are not good (below 50%), and she even feels she was stronger before. It might all be in her head (her past slump). Although she seems very mature, she is still young, a teenager, and head is complicated.

Many things to consider: graduate from junior high school, money issues (she is ok with this, but her parents can make more in Japan), and of course the Nihon Kiin will have something to say. But I don't she would say anything in public unless she has already considered and talked about this in private. In this case, by "she" I mean "she and her parents". So I'd say that right now, the move is quite likely to happen.

What about Japanese tournaments? Will she drop them while she is in Korea. Or could she travel, the same way that now she travels to China and Korea? The NK might find a way to fix her schedule, they wouldn't want to miss this player. But if it is not possible, Sumire will be out promotions, will not be seeded anymore when she comes back to Japan... (I am sure she will come back). Who knows, perhaps she will have to play again in the first prelims of everything, crushing new players! Like Hikaru

In today's game in the Asian Games, Sumire beat Oh Yu-jin 9-dan from Korea. Maybe she is not becoming weaker...

[John Fairbairn]

I haven't been following Sumire properly over the summer holidays, and so there may be news I've missed. The cessation of Go Weekly last week also hinders matters. But at this stage I am tempted to think of mountains and molehills.

A few weeks ago it was announced that Sumire would join the Korean's Women's League (a team event) as part of a drive to bring together the "three female geniuses": Kim Eun-chi 6-dan (age 16) of Korea, Sumire 3-dan (age ) from Japan and Wu Yiming 5-dan (age 16) from China. All will play in different Korean teams (?over 8 rounds). This event was curtailed because of the CV pandemic and so we can see this as an attempt at a major relaunch. (NH Bank = Nonghyup Bank sponsoring).

It won't be a first for Japanese women, though - Fujisawa Rina played in the league before the pandemic.

Is this a case of "I'm looking forward to playing in Korea" being transmogrified into "I want to go and live in Korea"?

Kim Eunchi (she of the AI incident) has been going great guns recently, reaching a couple of finals and totting up a score of some 65%. Wu Yuming seems rather out of the limelight, scoring around 50%.

[pajaro]

Is this a case of "I'm looking forward to playing in Korea" being transmogrified into "I want to go and live in Korea"?

It is not. It is a real case of "I want to go and live in Korea".

New video, from Mimura Tomoyasu 9-dan:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H632eAmKmZQ


In this one, the automatic translation does a worse job. But, from what I can understand, he takes the moving of Sumire as a fact. He also discusses the resons, why it happens, compares to baseball (players going to other countries), rules, different systems, and whether Sumire will go back to Japan or not. Also, he mentions that he was one of those who made Sumire professional. I think he does not feel betrayed (allow me this word).

It would be great if someone who can understand Japanese gives a better explanation.

[John Fairbairn]

Indeed, the news is now out in the wider press, and it appears she has already made (on 10 September) an application to be be a guest player in the Hanguk Giwon. The significance of that is twofold. One aspect is that she wouldn't have to go through the qualification process. Second, if approved, she would normally be barred from playing in Japanese domestic events. But if it happens, she would not start in Korea until next March, and will of course play as normal in Japanese events up till then,

The Nihon Ki-in has already approved her decision. Wider opinion can perhaps be summed up as as "regrettable but unavoidable" and the example of Otani Shohei in baseball is naturally being cited.

Sumire already spent some time in Korea when a primary-school student, even learning some Korean, and seemed to enjoy the experience. But the driving force at present seems simply to get the opportunity to play against a noticeably higher level of opposition.

Her career record at present stands at 147-82. I'd be surprised if she makes 4-dan in Japan before leaving.

The intriguing party of the story is that "negotiations" with the Hanguk Giwon are "ongoing." I'm very curious what they are negotiating about. On the surface it looks like a no-brainer for the HG, but maybe it's all about providing support to bring her parents over, too, or sorting out education. There are, of course, Japanese/international schools in Seoul.

[Elom0]

I haven't been following Sumire properly over the summer holidays, and so there may be news I've missed. The cessation of Go Weekly last week also hinders matters

Al hope is not lost, I was delighted to find out that the Nihon Kiin immediately replaced it with '棋道web', and then was surprised to find that this one's free to read, so times are changing . . .

[Elom0]

Indeed, the news is now out in the wider press, and it appears she has already made (on 10 September) an application to be be a guest player in the Hanguk Giwon

THe video I was watched yesterday was posted on the day before that, which says she had already applied by september 8th

For a Korean perspective,

[pajaro]

I *think* Sumire is in her 3rd year of Junior High School. I am not sure because academic year (as well as fiscal year, and others) go from April to March, and it is a bit difficult for me to keep track. But if I am right, and John is right too about her moving to Korea in March, it would make perfect sense. No need to look for a Japanese/International school (assuming she won't continue with school), and full time dedicated to study and play go.

A real boost to her performance. Or at least, a real chance to see if her potential is real, which everybody hopes.

[John Fairbairn]

I'm seeing quite a lot of misinformation about previous transfers in the go world in the wake of the Sumire announcement.

I'm not prepared to do any research on this, but just from the top of my head, I'll mention a few things that will show it's not all a case of Taiwan to Japan, and Rui Naiwei was not the first mould-breaker in going to Korea.

In no special order - just as it popped out of my brain (then checking dates with the GoGoD Onomasticon):

1. MIYASAKI SHIMAKO
Japanese. She went to China to study go for one year in 1989 and was allowed to take part in the 1st Chinese Women's Mingren. She finished 7th.

2. YU KYEONG-MIN
A Korean professional with the Korean Go Association who transferred to Taiwan in 2005-07 as a guest of the Taiwan Qiyuan to help raise the level of go there (and also to indulge his own interests in things Chinese).

3. ZHANG ZHENGPING
Originally a Taiwanese-born professional who becane a 1-dan with the Korean Go Association in 1998, though she later transferred back to Taiwan to became the first female professional in Taiwan in 2000 (while also retaining Korean professional status till 2010). Zhang's case is especially interesting as she first enrolled as an insei in the Nihon Ki-in at age 12 but she transferred to Korea at age 17 to study with Kweon Kap-yong.

4. HUANG YAN
Chinese professional originally with the Chinese Go Association but transferred to Korean Go Association in Korea in 1994 as 2-dan. She was, for examle, runner-up in the 5th Women's Kuksu and the 5th Bohae in 1998).

5. MAO YUHENG
Chinese professional with the Chinese Go Association. She was chosen in 2003 to go to study in Korea with Kweon Kap-yong, at a time when Chinese players en masse were switching from learning Japanese to learning Korean. On her return to China she was appointed as a PR ambassador for Hangzhou and was known also in China as a go presenter on CCTV.

6. JIANG ZHUJIU
When mentioning Rui Naiwei going to Korea, we should also not overlook that her husband went with her (1999).

Depending bow far back you want to go, there are other examples, and also slightly different examples. For example, Yi Se-tola and Kim Chi-seok defied their own association in Korea to go and play as guests in China. In Kim's case it was mainly for a love of things Chinese, like Yu Kyeong-min.

Maybe the earliest example of transfer if you do go back in history is Gu Shuiru, from China to Japan. As the top player in China then, he first went to Japan in 1915 and studied there for two years at the school of Hirose Heijiro. This was before the Nihon Ki-in existed, so we can't really talk about transferring associations, but the intent was the same.

Kim In was the first Korean to transfer associations. He joined Kitani Minoru's school as a Korean 3-dan in 1962. He technically had to re-qualify in Japan, but as he won all his games in the Oteai he was allowed to jump straight from 0-dan to 3-dan, thus equalling Go Seigen's record. Perhaps deciding he had nothing more to learn in Japan, he returned to Korea after a year, eventually winning over 20 titles with a career record of 860 win in 1568 official games. He was also, until Yi Ch'ang-ho came along, the holder of the record for most consecutive wins (40).

If you want to go back a VERY long way, you might want to count Abe no Nakamaro going from Japan to China in the 8th century, though whether he was really a pukka go player is open to to question. But we can't question the credentials of Kyochu, a Japanese priest who went to China in the late 15th century. He was a strong player wrote a go book in Chinese, part of which is still extant in the weird but famous Shiqing-lu.

[kvasir]

The news on the Nihon kiin webpage are informative.

Going by google translate it says that the reports are true, that she has asked to transfer as a visiting player and that the kiin is supporting here. It also states that KBF(?) is expected to decide on the arrangement around the end of the year and that it is expected that she would play in Japan until end of February 2024 and then start playing in Korea.

What seems very unusual is if she defends the female Kisei title and the visit lasts long enough then she will have to get a leave from Korea to defend the title again

[pajaro]

What seems very unusual is if she defends the female Kisei title and the visit lasts long enough then she will have to get a leave from Korea to defend the title again

I thought about this too.

But it's only 3 games (or 2). Last year, when Sumire won it, one game per week. If Sumire has to defend while she is in Korea, she could travel for every game, or games can be scheduled closer in time, so that she can make only one trip. Whatever happens, I don't see any problem. Right now, as a Japanese player, she travels to China and Korea for games, and the organizers make it work.

But yes, it would be interesting to see her defending the title as a "non active" player.

In this tournament, she has to worry only about a few games in very specific dates. In all other tournaments, she could be still running when she leaves. Will she forfeit all those games? Will she compete until she loses (again, travelling)?